Competitions - complaints, good stuff, thoughts

Charley started this discussion · 10/9/2010

So I have been a bit absent from the site this week but I saw the Worlds thread and thought if we want to discuss general comp guidelines, things we like or hate or how certain comps should turn out we can do it on this thread. I hate to see congratulatory threads turn into these kinds of discussions because it downplays that we should be offering our well wishes to the winners and the participants. I think no matter what our opinions are of each comp turn out - we should could the threads for congrats seperate from the complaints so that those who did win or did do well don't feel bad. You never know who is reading the site 🙂 So here's Charley's thoughts: I think competitors should know all of the rules and the guidelines- the public doesn't necessarily need that info I think competitors should always be treated respectufully - win, lose or draw - by those who run competitions I think the more competitions we have the more we will understand them and their outcomes I think we should be nice to the pole cleaners because they don't mean to be over aggressive with grips - how can they know what is too much or too little? Sadly, there is no professional pole cleaner and we all take a risk of something going wrong when we use grips on the pole and allow competitors to use grips on the pole. I think it's okay to ask questions, how else can we learn? But when we ask questions about judging there is a respectful and disrespectful way to do it. I think comps are very good for our industry but I also think showcases are too! I think sometimes we as pole dancers idolize competitive pole dancers over just good pole dancers because we want to take lessons fromt he winners not necessarily asking if they are qualified to teach. Veena has never done a competition but I would have her at my studio in a heart beat because she is an amazing performer AND teacher. Empy has never competed but I have learned so much through her instructor cert that I would love to feature her at my studio as a guest and the list goes on. I think we all put a little too weight into competitions and thats why we can get so upset about the outcomes but if there were more venues for dancers to express them and perform maybe we wouldn't get so upset about who wins and loses.

45 replies

Veena · 10/10/2010
Thank you for this post Charley. Its great to know there are amazing professionals like yourself on the site who take the initiative to talked about this in a respectful manner. This is what I ardor about the Veeners! So with that in mind.....when disusing the complaints.....PLEASE keep it professional. We are the most largest, highest trafficked Pole dance website in the world so yes people are watching even if they do not comment. 🧿 Please keep that in mind. 🌸 My friends just arrived at my home so I'll will leave my other thoughts later. ☀️
hookedonpole · 10/10/2010
Thank you, charley for expressing your thoughts in such a respectful, positive manner. Also, veena for acknowledging the same. I am beginner/intermediate poler, started late in age and enjoy poling so much. This is the place I gravitate to for support, encouragement fun, friends, etc. Thank you! 🤸
amcut · 10/11/2010
Man, that was a nice post! I agree! With everything. I love y'all! I LOVE Y'ALL
RoxyPink · 10/11/2010
Hear Hear!! I totally agree! 🥂
HannahElizabeth · 10/12/2010
Great points 🥂 I wish there were more showcases so people who didn't want the pressure of competing could perform without having to worry about being judged on whether they are a "winner" or not 🌸
Veena · 10/12/2010
I think Competitions are great and can give dancers something to work towards. Right now the pole industry is so new...... We have a lot to take into consideration with both competitions and performances. Here are some of my thoughts/questions...... Will there be a standard size pole? standard finish? should we really allow grip aids if they cannot be cleaned off fully for the next dancer? Both finish and grips will react differently to different skin so what do we do about that? And how else can Dancers combat a cold pole and in some cases a lack of a proper warm up? Is there a standard height of workable pole dancers will work with? I would like to see large scale showcases marketed to the public. 😉
chemgoddess1 · 10/12/2010
My 2 cents: I would really like to see more competitions where men were allowed as well as doubles. Some of the rules seem downright silly to me. Does the ability to so the splits really make you a better performer? After seeing the rules for worlds it also seems to me that some of the criteria are based on beauty pageant type rules. Since when do you have to be "beautiful" in order to even place? The scoring should be based on ABILITY, not whether or not you are a proper "lady" on and off the stage. The "no nudity" is also laughable considering the first Worlds were held at Hedonism. Make workshops associated with the competition AFFORDABLE. Hell, even hold some of the competitions in places where hotel rooms are affordable. I also would like to see more showcases. Not that I really want to perform but I love being in a room of people watching people of all shapes and sizes and levels of ability get up there and have fun. I have places where I can get out and pole in front of people, many do not and I think this is a great opportunity for many. I am sure I will have more thoughts on this. More thoughts: Judges should be competent and should have an idea of pole dancing or fitness or gymnastics or something. Also I think feedback should be mandatory. Within a reasonable time frame competitors should be given what they lost points on or what they need to improve. If the event is going to be videotaped hire a competent videographer.
litlbit · 10/12/2010
I'm wondering if they've taken their que a bit from Bodybuilding. Bodybuilding requirements which has now 4 categories for women, "Bodybuilding", "Fitness", Figure", and "Bikini". The Fitness competitor for example has to be able to do the splits, side and front I believe and tumbles, one handed push-ups etc. Each category has basic specific requirements. The judges are usually people that have competed themselves and or trained competitors. We find similar criticisms in this area as well, the fans don't always agree with the judges. As for getting the feedback, it can take up to 6 months to get your score card with comments back. The PRO comps are in large cities, like Las Vegas, New York etc. Hotels, travel and shows are VERY expensive....so having said all of that I think the poling comps are kind of in line with what other professional comps are doing, and are AMAZING to watch what these people have accomplished!!
amy · 10/12/2010
i think that clear criteria for judging should be on the website, for everyone, so that people know what to put in their entry videos as well. i think entry videos should ALL be listed somewhere. right now we have no idea who enters competitions and there is no accountability for who is selected. if we can go and see for ourselves the quality of the entrants, we have a better idea if the people who were chosen are people we feel should have been chosen. but, i can see how this could be a privacy issue for people who don't want others to know if they didn't make it. i think that the judging panel should be made up of MANY people, from all different studios and parts of the pole world. i think that the scores should ALL be posted immediately, like in every other competitive athletic sport, so that judges are accountable for what they score. and i think the highest and lowest scores should be thrown out.
chemgoddess1 · 10/12/2010
Not all pro comps are held in expensive cities. The Arnold is one of the largest and it is held in Columbus Ohio every March. I can get a decent hotel downtown for under $150 a night or go 10 minutes outside of the city and get one for $80 (even $50's if you look at Motel 6 and the like). I can easily eat for under $10 a meal and there is plenty of nightlife. Even the Olympia is in Vegas....cheap airfare, cheap accommodations and again PLENTY to do.
litlbit · 10/12/2010
Not all pro comps are held in expensive cities. The Arnold is one of the largest and it is held in Columbus Ohio every March. I can get a decent hotel downtown for under $150 a night or go 10 minutes outside of the city and get one for $80 (even $50's if you look at Motel 6 and the like). I can easily eat for under $10 a meal and there is plenty of nightlife. Even the Olympia is in Vegas....cheap airfare, cheap accommodations and again PLENTY to do. LOL well chemgoddess there are alot of us that find that EXPENSIVE, I live where the cost of living is cheap and can't afford those prices. So to alot of "us" out here that's spendy. Like everything else it's what your used to! ha ha I attended a local comp last year and it was $30, to get in...for us that's high! 🙂
Judy Jovanelly · 10/12/2010
i think that the scores should ALL be posted immediately, like in every other competitive athletic sport, so that judges are accountable for what they score. and i think the highest and lowest scores should be thrown out.[/quote accountable judging ! yes !!!! but before the judging can become levelled and accountable, shouldn't there be some sort of universal points system put in place ?
RoxyPink · 10/12/2010
My two cents on requirements.... In figure skating when you competed you competed at a certain level...each level had requirements that HAD to be performed..maybe it was a double axle vs a split but if you didn't do it successfully then you were docked points. Most competitive performance based sports have a requirements list. I think this is a fair way of bringing people of equal skill into the same competition. What I've seen so far as requirements has been pretty broad...meaning a requirement of an invert...it doesn't specify a specific invert so it's up to you fill in the blank. In other sports (figure skating for example) it is MUCH more specific. As far as the judging is concerned...as a spectator I really don't care what the judges scores are...I'm there to watch people perform. As a competitor it is up to me to be knowledgeable in what is required of me. If I don't fulfill those requirements it's on me...not the judges. I think requirements keep it fair...yes Person X may have had a beautiful, difficult performance but if the requirements said she had to hold this invert/pose/thigh hold for X amount of time and she didn't...does she deserve all the possible points? I think the judges should have well rounded backgrounds (fitness, dance, pole, gymnastics, acting...etc) as this makes the process less biased. And as a side note...I'm really SICk of peeps throwing around the word Politics...I mean seriously!?!? What do the judges have to gain from so-and-so placing or obtaining Title A...this isn't the NFL or Nascar...there is no massive amounts of money to be had... Art is subjective...especially when you are mixing it with feats of physical strength/flexibility etc... There needs to be more respect and less finger pointing all around...quit blaming others...own up to it Stop being so negative and start supporting your pole sisters/brothers!! I agree that there should be more competitions involving men/pairs..but I also like the ones that are for women...the artistry is different...
amy · 10/12/2010
jayjay i think the idea of having universal points is really itneresting. i think that it may be a loooong ways away, but i think that at least on a per-competition basis, the points system coudl be announced beforehand. roxy, i think that the politics thing is a bummer too. no one is REALLY getting rich from pole, not yet. but the pole community is still so small, that "fame" is a serious thing and means something to a lot of people. i know women who feel that they need to compete just to get their names out there. i also know women who are obsessed with "networking" and climbing the social pole ladder. so sometimes, the reward that people get or perceive and are chasing after is not so much monetary as it is intangible...
verucablue · 10/12/2010
I still think one of the major issues really is...are we looking at it as a sport or is it a dance/showcase or even pageant type of competition. If it is a sport comp then yes - by all means it should be treated just like Gymnastics or Skating etc...it's when you get into more of the dance or pageantry elements that judging becomes much more subjective and if the judging policies are not transparent things can get or at least seem messy. I think we saw some of this during Pole Superstar in NYC when Barbara Dial won...some people were mad/confused...personally I think she did a wonderful job and we should support all forms of pole dancing in every form and every dancer. Was she the best "trickster" maybe not. Did her dance resonate with the judges...seems like it did. Blech it's tricky - I am glad I am not a judge LOL 😀
Judy Jovanelly · 10/12/2010
@ Roxy and Veruca -- this is kind of why i think things should be separated. Comps, to me, should be more like those you find in dance, skate or gymnastics, with more formal requirements, scoring and judging. for artistry and sheer enjoyment of the sport - showcases that are not judged. to me, that kind of sums up the whole thing. just like in the dance world -- there are many studios out there who do nothing with their companies but compete, and whose entire curriculum is devoted to tricks and technique for that purpose. then there are other studios who's companies are focused on entertainment only. makes sense to me !
Mary Ellyn · 10/13/2010
A lot of interesting thoughts here! This is a great way to discuss this. First some insight - it's expensive to run a c ompetition. As many here know I'm looking into hosting the Midwest Comp next summer. Frankly the cost is scaring me. And don't say the answer is sponsors - not many sponsors want to give CASH to cover the costs. They want to give product. Even the ones who give cash...it's a drop in the bucket compared to the expenditures involved. To do it "right" without a lot of hardball criticism is not going to be easy to accomplish. It depends on what people are expecting. Are we going to be happy with a competition in the location where I hosted the pole jam? Room rental was "only" $50 and hour. We could only seat about 50 spectators at the show afterward. If I want the larger room at $125 per hour...we could seat up to 150 people. No frills....simple and gets the job done. A large portable speaker system with a hired DJ? Forget lighting. Videos...do we hire someone? Well we could allow videos to be taken sure. What about music? Does anyone have any idea what music licensing costs for an event? I know for my studio the cost is about $1500 per year for the music I play. Now I have to get an event license for the music. Then if I want to ALLOW people to tape it or hire a videographer where this will be posted over and over or on DVD....wow! I can't even imagine that license fee. Poles...not going to just put up pressure mounted poles like we did for the showcase - now we have to hire teamsters (or other) to rent and assemble rigging for the poles so that it's guaranteed safe. Not to mention the poles themselves, the mouting brackets to hold them securely to the rigging. Insurance...OK. I pay about $750 a year for insurance. However, now I need event insurance. Does anyone have a guess what something like that runs? Judges...well they aren't going to do this for free. AND they have to travel as ethics and honesty are often questioned when judges are local - even just the possiblity of conflict of interest. So....flights and room for each judge. How many judges? More is probably better....with 3 judges, the scoring is heavily decided just by ONE persons vote. So ...how many judges do we have to pay to travel and stay with us. Back to that room we rent for the event. Well...if people are coming from all over, they don't want to just come to the comp and leave. There are parties, meet and greets, practice sessions at the location for the competitors, etc. Now we're probably talking more than one day. THis doesn't even take into consideration a larger room for more people as many comps easily host over 200 guests. And remember...we're talking still about a cheap park distict room - $125 an hour...minimum 10 hour day (probably more) $1250. A couple hotels and convention centers in which I was looking into renting the banquet room for this comp: starting at $2000 per day. And that was the CHEAP location...others were up to $3500 just for the room. What else did I miss...ok medics. You have to hire and have medics on scene. Anything else? I'm sure someone wants a DVD produced. Last I heard a "decent" DVD is in the $10 - $20,000 range for the bare basics but maybe it can be done for less than that???? OK...so get me past freaking out of costs and how much money I'm going to lose - because trust me, I AM going to lose money on this - and now talk about rules and organizing this event. Do non-competitors really need to know the rules of the competition or what everyone's score is/was? I really think that's stretching it too far. The only people who should know that are the competitors. Or would it be better if the judges sit like they do at the Olympics and hold up cards with numbers on it! Feedback - the competitors deserve it! They put a lot into this - their hearts are broken. Sure a lot of people do into a competition without expecting to win (or so they say) but NO ONE goes in expecting to end up in last place! And yet those scores are suppose to be shared publicly with everyone? Yet they should get feedback at least privately because they deserve that much for how hard they work to put into it. That said...I have not yet heard of any competition which does NOT GIVE feedback. Has anyone else? Scoring... I may just decide to place valuation on the website if we do a comp here. However, I would not release scores publicly only to the competitors. I've judged two dance competions by video. It was horrible. And I got to use instant replay. Judges dont! Blink your eyes and you may miss something important. Try to write something before you forget it and you miss something else...or you wait til the end to write and you forget already. AND then rush to do it all because another competitor is up in line! Judging is tough,. Finally my opinion is that pole dancing is almost always both dance and fitness - unless you're going to just walk around the pole - that's simply the nature of what we do. So we have to learn how to judge it from both aspects and you cannot take all of the subjective element out of it because it IS artistic. That means that in the end the desicion will at least in part be based on an element of personal opinion. We are just now beginning to work on this for the Olympic committee....I see years ahead before we even come up with our first "good" draft.
Mary Ellyn · 10/13/2010
And let me go back and refer to Veena's post too. I think poles and grip products are definitely something to consider but it's still going to be tough. Even if you pick one type of pole (stainless for example) the grip can vary from manufacturer to manufacturer. Grip producst are used in many other fields of competition and sports so it makes sense here too but maybe we can ban certain grip products which are tough to remove? Do we need to consider what type of cleaning products are used? Do we allow competitors one option to stop performing and call for the poles to be re-cleaned if they find them to be dangerous? Can you even imagine being up on a pole at a comp (or a show) and finding a truly greasy area of pole or as others have found...grip product leftover from someone else? It's a mess! Not sure we can do anything to control most of it?
FreeTheSun · 10/13/2010
I think a good way to judge pole comps would be similar to how they judge synchronized swimming. http://www.gostanford.com/sports/w-syncs/spec-rel/102401aaa.html Synchro is really similar to pole in that there are certain moves but then there is a lot of artistry that goes into it as well. So one group of judges judge on technical skill and another does the artisty aspect, then those are combined to create the final scores. Alternatively, I think that certain pole comps with emerge as having a more technical/tricks focus, where as others will emphasis the more creative/dance aspects and as competitions get better estabilished people will know that for such and such comp to expect this and for such and such comp expect that. It is really difficult to judge things like this, I know I wouldn't want all that pressure.
Mindy4pole · 10/13/2010
The comp I was in (Miss TX PoleStar) gave no feedback, no posting scores, no placements except the announced ones. I would prefer more openness with this info. I didn't expect feedback, b/c the west coast swing world I have been used to almost never gives feedback to competitors. They usually do give rankings, though. I definitely believe the judging criteria should be available to everyone, and maybe even announced. We need judging seminars, to give people qualifications to judge. Then judges have some standardization for what they are doing. Also, competitors could take the seminar to understand what they are being judged on. I don't like the award "Miss Sexy", as there isn't a fair set of criteria for it. Sexy doesn't have objective measurements, that I can tell! Maybe there could be some way to give this type of award as an audience choice. I'd like to see more improv in competitions. You could do "draw for music" and you could also do "draw for moves". More social poling opportunities like pole jams along with competitions. The comps, by their nature, allow only a few people to participate. Workshops are good, but can be too expensive for folks. Also, as a competitor, I would never take a workshop before I competed. I lack the self control to keep from overdoing it! Venue -- I really like it when comps are at "regular" places. That is, not strip clubs. The top caliber dancers are amazing what ever the venue, but, from what I've seen, there's a big difference in the less skilled dancers. All the competitors I saw at my "regular" competition were pole dancers. At the one I went to at a strip club, the less skilled girls weren't. The pole was more of a prop than anything. I think the "regular" venue is also more conducive to skill, and less conducive to crotch shots. Some sort of "stop and do-over" system if there is a problem outside the control of the contestant (like playing the wrong music). The allowed grip aids need to be spelled out and there needs to be a plan on how to deal with them. The physical dimensions of the performance area need to be communicated to the contestants early. Clear info about the physical needs important to the competitors. Warm up space, for sure, but also where the bathrooms are and food and water availability. There should be emergency plans that all competitors are aware of. Mostly, I'm thinking about if someone falls, but it would also include the location of emergency exits and escape routes. Nobody thinks about that kind of stuff until a tragedy has happened. The last thing is a set of standards in the pole world. We have no agreement on names of moves or on difficulty. I believe it is impossible to have fair competitions or feedback without agreeing upon these basics. In the end, competitions can be a lot of fun, both for competitors and observers. There will always be favoritism. There will always be people who the crowd loves that the judges don't. There will always be problems. That's just human nature. I'm really happy to see competitions springing up. I think it will bring a lot of unity (and some in-fighting) to our community. Mindy
minicoopergrl · 10/13/2010
As someone who is putting thier own competition together, its hard work! Its alot of time between finding venues, chasing after emails, running the webpage etc. I knew before getting my hands into this, I knew this would take up alot of my time. I asked every resource I had about putting this together. I have tapped out all my resources to get the Battle up and running. Have I ran into things I didnt even think of? OMG yes, I didnt even know aobut event insurance (Empy, I can give you the quotes I have for mine and where I got them from), judges being compensated - which I totally understand, they have business to do as well. This is why I got an assistant to help me out. As a former NCA All-Star Cheerleader and a pole compeitior, ive seen things I like and dont like. I want feedback, I dont think I should ask for it at all! In cheer, we got our score sheets back that same day and reviewed them at the next practice. From there we worked on our flaws to be our best at the next compeititon (which sometimes was the next weekend). At Ms Xpose, they didnt give feeback. I didnt ask for, which is a fail for me. I dont think anyone asked for it, we didnt see ranking either. We were only told who won each catagory, one year I missed advancing by one point! The only reason I knew that was b/c Jessaylnn told me and she was the host for the event. Compeitiors should be respectful to each other. Yes you are all working towards the same prize and only one person is going home with it. In my nature, im a very encouraging person. I wish everyone the best of luck and thats something ive been doing since my NCA days. No politics please. I dont care how long youve been in pole, im gonna cheer you on. I have much respect for each girl, it takes alot of balls to get up there and do what we do. I do like the compulsory and optional round. But I do think Optional round should be changed unless its really optional. I like that the competitiors have to show a technical routine but then get to do a routine they can do what they wish (within the guidelines of course). Judges - IMO, they should come from various forms of performance backgrounds - dance, gymnastics etc. As the sport gets bigger and stronger, we will have women with a pole background being able to judge. When I came up with the idea for the battle, I thought about who I wanted to judge. I wanted someone in the pole world, a local celebrity who has experience dealing with live performances and, a dance teacher. I got all 3 and im happy with the choices I got! Venue - it all depends what kind of vibe you want to give off for your event. I wanted something big and similar to what USPDF hosts in. Those prices are crazy pricey, the Hippodrome here in Baltimore was almost $5000 to rent thier smallest room. I also looked at places where local bands perform, we have a lot of places here that work well. The GM of one place I contacted also is the GM for Mist. I checked Mist out and loved the layout and how we were doing it. They were much lower (this all depends on the bar ring that night, it could cost me $500 or free) than the bigger venues. As a spectator, I dont care what snafus people ran into behind the scenes. Im there for a great show with great people. I trust whoever is judging, hosting, views submission videos to put on a great event. Yes, you can disagree with who they chose, but thats life. We all dont get along 100% of the time. I also dont want to hear people bad mouthing other compeitiors. The girl who sat next to me at USPDF, was talking trash about Winter. I let it go in one ear and out the other, thats your opinon and I dont know Winter so therefore I cant say what I think about her. Which I did meet her and shes really cool! Ticket Prices/ Accomdations - thats always going to be a tough place no matter how you look at it. You want it to be reasonable priced but then you want to cover costs that youve already paid. I based alot of my work from the Ms Xpose compeitions. Was USPDF pricey ? IMO yes, but I still went and felt like I got my $65 worth in entertainment. In Mary Kay when we travel we go in groups. We always share beds and rooms, we know those things can get expensive and if you can save a couple of bucks by rooming or trying out a different hotel in a close area - by all means go for it. Which is why I drove to USPDF and back, it was only an hour each way. I know have more to say, but my brain is shot currently. (shhh im supposed to be working!) When comes to me, ill just add on!
Mary Ellyn · 10/13/2010
FreeTheSun...that's a very interesting concept about having different judges score different areas. Thanks Mini...I'll contact you about that at some point I'm certain. Although I think I may be locked into using my current insurance company since I already have one and I'm GUESSING it's better to stay with one company? Not sure? I think it's a shame that there are comps where the contestants don't get feedback! That's just not right! 🙁 I also like the idea of pole jams to go with the comps...already plan it for mine. I also plan an over 45 Masters Division. While the over 45-ers can join the general pole jam, there will be a pole jam just for the 45 and up women too. I've been talking with a number of people already about how to organize the Midwest comp and I've barely scratched the surface but a few things are already coming together. My concept in valuation, aside from posting it when I'm ready, is to make it as diverse as possible. I feel that since pole dancing is so diverse and all the styles are equally as "good", despite individual preferences I want to try to keep everyone on an even playing field. We will allow men and women and will encourage all styles of pole dancing from fitness through sensual as well as fusion. So....making the valuation diverse is important just as having a diverse line up of judges is important. Judging on MANY things all getting equal value - everything from technique to costumes (theme appropriate) to musicality just to name a few, and thereby hopefully leveling out the playing field. A "good" pole dancer in my opinion can be either atheletic or sensual - you don't have to personally LIKE it but you should be able to judge if they are good at what they do. The diversity in scoring would level out that field of judging just like having several judges (I'm planning on 5) will diversify scoring. I feel this is important if we're going to have men competing against women. I also think it would be good that someone who excells at tricks can be judged equally next to someone who has a rapturous spinning technique! Mindy you had a lot of good points too. Finally, I think publicly and harshly criticizing any specific person or entity -whether they "deserve it" or not - is unethical, unprofessional, immature and just plain tacky. If you feel your opinions are worthwhile...then responsibly share them through the proper channels. Anything else just brings the community down.
Charley · 10/13/2010
I am so happy to see how respectfult this thread has been! 🥂 Veena - you have great questions!!!! I think we should be able to use grips but I do think ones that are difficult to get off the pole shouldn't be allowed on the pole. Pole sizes? I am not sure why 45's are popular for comps??? At worlds they had a 38 and a 50 which I know is tough to work between but as Pantera pointed out "you have to be able to work anything." So maybe a good solution is to use both 45's and 50's. As a competitor it was really hard to stay warmed up. A warm up pole or something would have been great, I should have packed heavier track suits and sweaters though because that would have helped a ton, things like legwarmers, heating pads..etc - I never thought of that. As a competitor I think it's important to realize that a lot of the responsibility rides on me. I should be asking questions and when I do I should get a prompt response, I should know ALL the rules and if I am not sure I need to ask. We should never be Diva's about it. I think it's a fine balance between what the competitor needs to provide and the organization. It's very easy to look at the organization and complain about what they didn't provide rather than look at yourself and say wow that's my fault I didn't think of that. Look at all the things they do provide. FEEDBACK - whoa Litlbit pointed out a body builder gets feedback 6 months later?!?!?!?! WOW! How can feedback that old be of much use? At the same time I gues when you are dealing with multitudes of people it's hard to get them all feedback. I think that because pole comps deal with less competitors that we should get feedback within a few weeks...but then if other sports don't even provide feedback??? Judes have my utmost respect because I do think its hard to see and enjoy the whol performance when you are trying to write notes and scoring as well asSEE every nuance. I have to agree I think 5 judges is a well rounded panel because I can totally see where a competitor might lose a lot of points with one judge andthat could really hurt them. I don't think pole judging is done in that way I assume the judges probably score each competitor closely to on another. But it's a good point. When I do showcases I cannot tell you guys how much stress that is. I can't imagine putting on a full competition! You have people changing things last minute, their drama becomes your drama and you have to take a deep breath and say I know this person doesn't mean to do this, I know this person is dealing with their own things but it's my job to fix this. Music gets mixed up, you get sent the wrong files, computers fail and die. People want to change the order they are up, there are so many things that change even while the show is going...that you are so worried your friends will end up hating you. You have a lot to answer for because you are in charge even if those things are beyond your control. This is small time compared to the issues with competitions and I feel like the organization and by organizations most of these comps are put on by 1 or 2 people, the organization rarely gets a thank you just a lot of negativity being thrown their way. I would hate to be them, I would hate to see my hard work demeaned by small issues. I can't imagine comps bring in that much money or these organizers are making a ton of money. It takes hours and days to put together a show...and to end it all with "well that was political" is wrong of us. The term political is an all to easy term for us to use but it demeans the winners and it demeans the people participating. Did I not place well at USPDF because I am unliked? I didn't do well because I was scared and nervous and my own snafus. I would hate to think that its because of me personally, it makes me feel better to think okay not my best performance...I have the chance to do better next time.
Charley · 10/13/2010
Additionally, I don't think you can have a competition and have everyone happy with the outcome - we want our favorites to win and that's great. I think it's equally important to congratulate everyone who does well and places even if they aren't your favorite because they worked hard too. Competitors have no control over where they place. At USPDF I never once felt in competition with anyone but the poles and me. It's up to ME to do a great job, it's up to ME to hit my points and holds, it's up to ME to do all of the things it takes to win or place. If I don't do those things then that's on me, I think that's why we should all be friendly and supportive with the other competitors. Mini - Winter was really sweet. I was so glad to meet her and get to know her a little better. Empy - I know you are doing your best to put things in order to provide a very transparent and fair competition and really working hard to make it as diverse as possible. Thank you for doing something so huge and putting the midwest on the map. Thank you to all of the organizations and organizers for your hard work to provide these competitions...without them we would still be so small, these events bring positive PR to our passion and puts it out there for the world to see.
meaganoff · 10/13/2010
hey guys-- been working on a post for a few days (in between having a crazy work week), so I'm a little behind and a few points are redundant - someone mentioned using synchronized swimming as a template - I will check it out! - but I mention the same thing below with gymnastics... But I thought it better to post the whole thing in its entirety than try and go back and fix it... I will just get more behind! Ok, here goes: == A couple of thoughts from someone who is a former low-level competitive gymnast (and the daughter of two national level gymnastics coaches - my mom is a judge as well): On the gymnastics side, there are a couple of schools of thought... It is mostly an amateur sport, highlighted at the Olympics. And I know they have gone to a new judging style at that level. But in any case, at club competitions of all levels, it just about the sport. The outfits are all basically standardized - everyone on the team has the same leotard, and from team to team all that varies is the colors and maybe sleeve length. Lower level comps are compulsory, and then upper levels are "optionals" - meaning using your own choreography and music. There is no component for personality or appearance. The scores are based on: difficulty of tricks / skills, and then how well those tricks are executed. Deductions are very very VERY specific. In fact, if you go to the website NAWGJ - National Association of Women's Gymnastic Judges - you'll see that judges have to TEST to become judges. My mom has had to test many times to either keep her standing as a judge or move up and judge higher levels. You have to know how many tenths of a point you can deduct for flexed feet, bent knees, lack of split, etc etc, on every move. It's pretty intense. And I want to mention, this is just "artistic gymnastics" - there is also rhythmic gymnastics, acro-sport, power tumbling, etc etc, all with different scoring systems. When I was growing up, I even remember they tried to do "Professional" Gymnastic shows with popular songs and costumes (not sure if that is still around) Now, I'm not saying pole HAS to be JUST like gymnastics, not at all!! But I think there are similarities and the pole world could use it as a template, and pick and choose and modify from there. What I feel like is going on in the pole world is people will register for a comp, and will have no idea, sometimes up to week before, whether it is the equivalent of an Artistic Gymnastic meet, or a Rhythmic Gymnastic meet, or Power tumbling. They don't even know what goes into the comp, let alone how they should prepare or how they should feel about the judges. So here's an idea for a path to some clarity: PHASE 1 - Applied to high level pole competitions that are already in place - state, regional, national, and international 1. An independent, centralized organization of Pole Fitness Judges (let's just call them PFJ for short) standardizes moves / move names (I know PFA is working on this already - yay!). This is not to say there can't be variations but it will give some structure regarding levels of difficulty and how to score. 2. PFJ then assigns point values and difficulty levels. 3. PFJ (alone or in collaboration with other organizations) derive a few styles of competition -? This may include but is of course not limited to: ? Artistic pole - like Artistic Gymnastic, focusing on tricks, skills, dance, and choreography but NOT appearance or costumes ? "Polesque" or Theatrical pole - Includes costumes and focuses on storytelling, acting, and original concepts -? This way pole competitions can specify and be immediately recognized as a certain type of competition and what the judging will be like, regardless of the club / person / group holding the competition. (It should be noted that I think people can have whatever kind of competition they want, it doesn't have to fit in the rules, but they wouldn't get to use the PFJ logo which I would think would be a draw - people like knowing what to expect) PHASE 2 1. PFJ provides some level designations - for example, levels 1 - 5 or 1 - 10, and specifies what tricks must and cannot be used at each level. Each level can have a regional, national, and international champion, if desired. This way more people can get involved without having to be international elite athletes. ------ Basically, PFJ would take the burden of the structure of a competition off the shoulders of the person holding, it so they could focus on venue, marketing, perks for competitors, making it as nice as possible... ALL the other concerns that people have stated. The would no longer have to worry about the judging scale, and making sure judges are qualified. Okay, that outline is just something I did for fun, not meant to say that's what should or needs to happen… But it's a possible (if loooong) path I worked out for myself and thought you guys might like to read. I'm just considering this whole thread fun / food for thought for the time being. 🙂

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