Competitions - complaints, good stuff, thoughts
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Charley ·
I love your post Meaganoff - you make some very good and interesting points on criteria. I would like to point out the single comp I have done was very good at telling us which moves were compulsory - they even had a video channel for us to watch showing examples. With pole, it's impossible to show every example of a move or variation so it's up to the competitor to ask. I actually did have a question about if a specific move would count as a compulsory move and was given the answer. Choreographing a compulsory routine was the hardest part of the whole competition - going up and dancing to a song you love for 4 minutes is easy - hitting your marks and holds within the time alootted and making it look good is super hard. I'm hoping Keex will join this thread as someone who has done a lot of judging and can give feedback from that side of things. Roxy makes a great point of even if someone does an amazing routine and it might even appeal to you more than someone else's - competitors are not judged against each other - that's why the point system is so great. So, someone might have this great routine but if it doesn't include all of the qualified compulsories than that person would lose points for that round. So it's not always who has the best routine but who did everything correctly - that really counts for a lot. Meaganoff - A lot of what you are saying is basically how comps are done and you've added some extra things that I think are important too. I think knowing the type of competition you are in is very important. I think a lot of times we just want to get in and be accepted into a competition without thinking about what criteria we need to fulfill - that is just as much on competitors as it is organizers though. I like the outline you have here, that must have taken forever to do. I think its a good system and outline.
I want to bring up another concept - I think it would be boring to have all the competitions fully standardized. There has to be some significant differences - as long as they are clearly defined. I think pole is so individual and artistic that we will lose a lot of what we love if we standardize too much. Isn't this exactly what so many people were concerned would happen to pole if it got into the Olympics? We need to keep the individuality and the way to do that is to allow some freedom for various types of competitions which while fair and clearly defined, should have their own rules and regulations. For example...if a competition wants to include how someone acts outside the comp - or judge on how they dress - or give points for compulsory moves - then it's up to the competitors if they LIKE that sort of valuation system. If not, don't enter! But if we allow it to become TOO standardized with rules and equipment, etc, then we'll lose the significance of having various competitions.
But If a standardized system is in place... There is nothing to stop you from going outside of it. Do something NOT endorsed by the standardized system! Having standards doesn't stop you from doing that. But it DOES help people who want to approach pole as a sport. I don't see why it can't be done in a sport-like approach as well as a "pageant" approach (with looser or different rules.) I guess I don't understand why the two can't co-exist.
idk -- i don't think standardization across the board would really hurt all that much. consider ice skating comps, in particular, the olympics: they are very formal in the judging and requirements, but the competitors all seem to be able to maintain their individual artistry despite. imo, pole comps can be similar...
Well since this topic has been all over the place with various suggestions it's easy to be confused over exactly what some people expect to be standardized? I'd like to hear then exactly what can/should be standardized. I don't think you can standardize how points are awarded without taking away idividuality. Addtionally, no matter what we hope will happen, I can't possibly see those that run competitions agreeing to score everything the same way. I can see possibly standardizing poles - size and finish. Also approval of various grip products and cleaning solutions. Number of judges??? Clearly posted valuation systems for competitors. Of course in the end...it comes down to the fact that we can never ENFORCE any of these standards as there is no governing body to do so. I'd really like to hear more thoughts about this.
Veena ·
I am loving this thread.....it makes my head hurt though. lol Keep the thoughts coming! 🥂 I hope that we continue to see a few different types of Competitions and let's not forget Shows! All the talk about points and regulations would seem a bit more Sport and Olympic in nature. Which is great. But it would also be nice to keep the free flowing artistic aspect of pole going as well....this would seem to be the most difficult to judge. At least in my opinion. To echo what others have said ....not everyone will agree with the judges, its always that way. 🤓
Melrose ·
In August I was a competitor in Tri-Pole (Mrs. Spinster) and in October the studio I am with hosted the USPDF East Coast Regional competition. Both events were very good, very interesting experiences and I feel lucky to have been involved in both sides of the competition world. I have to say, EMW was excellent with their communication. They sent the competitors copies of the score sheets so we knew exactly how we were being judged. I knew going into the competition that any time I kicked into an invert, jumped into a spin, or didn't point my toes I would get a deduction. They also had a certain judge scoring a certain area. For example, a particular judge was scoring required elements, another judge was scoring execution, etc. I thought that was a great approach. Tri-Pole was EMW's first competition. I’m sure they have some things to fine tune, but as a competition virgin, I appreciated the transparency of the judging. Oh, and they DID announce our scores. I was a little apprehensive about that at first, but it makes sense. Scores shouldn’t be a big secret. They aren’t in any other sport. There might be some hurt feelings, but as a competitor, you have to realize that comes with the territory. Imo, the audience deserves to know how the competitors did. They may not agree with the judging, but that’s par for the course. As for hosting a competition…it was sooo much morework (and expense!) than I ever imagined! I will not bore you with all the details, I will just say that it was a great learning experience and I have a whole new respect for the people who host competitions 🙂 All things considered, I’m very proud of how well USPDF East Coast turned out. The tickets were expensive, but I think the price was fair (then again, I know how much the whole comp cost to put on--haha!) and I hope people felt they got their money’s worth. Empy, I wld be happy to answer any questions you may have about hosting a competition, expenses involved, etc. That's my two cents on the topic. Charley, thanks for starting this thread. It's great to see everyone's thoughts!
Empy, I wld be happy to answer any questions you may have about hosting a competition, expenses involved, etc. Thanks! I will get in touch with you as well soon. I'm certain there are expenses I haven't even considered yet!
JenLFG ·
If the event is going to be videotaped hire a competent videographer. THANK YOU!!!!
Just curious...anyone have any guesses as to what a videographer costs?
JenLFG ·
my friend charges around $300 a day, depending on how long he has to be there & the event... *** ETA he uses his own gear & he is always getting new cameras & stuff so he can make each event as awesome as possible. 😉
What sort of fees are you looking at for video production though? Im guessing the $300 is just his labor cost?
Hey Empy find me on FB tomorrow...I can give you the lowdown on the video aspect - it will vary depending on what you are looking for - I do it on a larger scale...but can tell you exactly what you need and costs.
What sort of fees are you looking at for video production though? Im guessing the $300 is just his labor cost? it depends on what kind of quality you want and the equipment they have. Do you want just one single shot or do you want mulitple cameras to cut between two shots? They also have to work with the audio people as well so the audio quality is good on tape. You would also have to do a run through with the videographer about where its safe to shoot and where isnt. What angles are ok? Post Production too - title credits, producing, editing (my fav thing to do) Also depends on how many copies you plan on selling, dubbing is a pretty simple job but it does get time consuming. Sorry, the TV 🤓 came out in me! I always think about these things during videos and while watching tv. I cant watch a video/tv show/movie just for enjoyment. Darn that TV Production degree! LOL
Thanks for all the information and I will be in contact. I know that the last time I talked to someone who produced two instructional DVDs her final cost was around $20,000. Now that included a couple hundred copies too. $300 to $20,000 is a big difference but it safely falls somewhere in there. I've never seen a wedding videographer that costs much less than $1000 and that's just for one video of one event. Most competitions are much longer - the Midwest will likely be all day. I also know that if you video record anything you are be responsible for the music licensing. See music licensing is required for use of any music in your studio. If you host an event, they now have an event contract you have to purchase. If you want to record that event, there is another contract because now you are not just using the music one time, but indefinitely and they charge more for that. There are several music licensing organizations - each one governing the use of various artists and various songs so you need a license with whichever PRO has the rights to each song the competitors use for both the event and the recording of that event. Even if someone in the audience uses their own camera - the event host is responsible for a recording license! There is so much to have to consider in the expense of hosting a competition - that $65 per ticket is sounding a lot more reasonable all the time!
BACE16 ·
... Of course in the end...it comes down to the fact that we can never ENFORCE any of these standards as there is no governing body to do so. ... OSHA? Its mission is to prevent work-related injuries, illnesses, and occupational fatality by issuing and enforcing standards for workplace safety and health. The pole is a work place, but I couldn't find anything about stripper or dance poles on their website osha.gov. OSHA does have industrial hygiene standards that might help with the cleaning part. It might work for strippers or people teaching classes, but OSHA doesn't cover self-employed and I have no idea how strippers and pole teachers file their taxes. Dancers in competition aren't employed by the competition so no help there. If OSHA were to regulate poles, the competition could at least advertise they're OSHA compliant. Yes OSHA is overkill and US only. But it would help to validate pole if the government recognized it and gave it some standards. Until there is a pole governing body, its an idea. /shrug
Fleur ·
Oh boy, I wish I had the time to think about this and give my $0.02 but I don't! I will say one thing: if you are considering competing I would advise you to seek the opinion of experienced competitors regarding the credibility of the organization and event. Please do not clamor to the first available event or you may find yourself stuck in a corner down the road. I also think it is a good idea to think about your reasons for wanting to compete and whether it is something that is trully beneficial for you. Not everyone has the thick skin necessary for a competitive environment and I see way too many people feeling crushed at the end of the day. I personally think that performing is a million gagillion times more rewarding and fun than competing! I'll take a showcase over a competition any day! Miss you guys, wish school wasn't eating my life! Fleur
Miss you too Fleur and I agree...people need to think about why they compete! I much prefer the atmosphere of a showcase. People fail a move at a competition and (at least inside) they are upset, disappointed and sometimes, understandably cry. Fail a move at a competition and everyone cheers you on and maybe they even try it a second time but either way they are still happy and having fun. OSHA only applies to businesses of a certain size. Many studios would not fall under OSHA regulations anyway. However I don't believe OSHA has anything to do with regulating equipment???? Do they have standards for machines in health clubs, etc? Plus OSHA is about saftey in the work place not for events. I'm not certain I want the government regulating pole dancing. 🤔
litlbit ·
empyrean, (OSHA only applies to businesses of a certain size. Many studios would not fall under OSHA regulations anyway. However I don't believe OSHA has anything to do with regulating equipment???? Do they have standards for machines in health clubs, etc? Plus OSHA is about saftey in the work place not for events. I'm not certain I want the government regulating pole dancing) I agree regarding OSHA, I have worked in facilities that have to be OSHA compliant...they are to say the least OVERKILL...the regulations that are enforced are very costly, which in my opinion would take pole out of reach for the average person because it would cost the studio, venue, etc. so much money to comply and then be passed on to the consumer..US! So I wouldn't want to see that happen to the Poling industry. That's just MHO 🙂
Charley ·
I love you Fleur, you always say the things I am afraid might not sound right coming out of me. Yes, seriously think about why you want to compete. If it's because you'd like to perform I highly recommend getting together people in your area and doing a showcase. As Empy said - if you miss a trick in a showcase the crowd will cheer for you to try it again. If you miss something in a comp, it's devastating. I've seen people cry. I have held friends and comforted them after making a mistake, I myself made many mistakes and cried about it for about 11 hours. If weren't for some very good friends *Empy* *Fleur* *Karol* I'd probably never even think of competing again. To echo what has been said above, please do your research on people and companies before you put yourself at their mercy. Talk to previous competitors if that applies. You should be able to email and ask questions BEFORE you compete. I think it's very important that organizers be ready for every stupid little question and be ready with a quick answer in a decent amount of time. Trust me, I asked some stupid ones, I am sure I was a chore of a competitor. But if you feel the need to ask the organizers should be giving you answeres.
