Body & Pole March Workshops
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Way cool Veena!
Webbie, Awesome input, I agree 100% Veena, YES!!! You ROCK!!! 🥂 🥂 As for an alternative organization, perhaps each state/region should have reprentatives that help set up events, competative and non-competitive. Let's do this thing!! For the love of pole!!!
Foxy_Rei ·
I've been reading the threads about all this and really haven't been able to form a coherent thought to respond because it just makes me so mad!!! 😈 I'm going to agree with Kari and Day: hearing this made me not want to go to the competition, and I thought it was ridiculous that they charge a yearly membership fee. I'm going to the competition anyway to support Amber as well as the other dancers, plus I haven't ever been to a pole jam or even met another person in person that poled and have been looking forward to this trip more because of that than the competition. This whole situation is just so.... so... STUPID! The USPDF workshops were pretty much full, they don't own the dancers, there is no reason that they should feel threatened by another studio offering workshops. Way to go Veena for offering to have a couple workshops! 🥂 I had to admit I was kinda sad when I heard that because I really really want to go to one of her workshops, but I can't. I could only afford one from the beginning, and it was originally between Amber and Karol. I went with Amber because I kinda-sorta know her "personally" because of being on the site here and I've been wanting to meet and pole with her for a long time. (No offense to Karol, of course) But now one of my other big pole idols is going too and I'm too broke. 🙁 Hopefully Veena will be around somewhere and I'll get to at least meet her in person, anyway 🙂
Hopefully Veena will be around somewhere and I'll get to at least meet her in person, anyway Foxi_Rei, We will be having Pole Play time for only $10 at Body & Pole on Thursday and I am sure a lot of your online friends and idols will come by. I hope to see you at Body & Pole regardless, just come say hi and introduce yourself. I would love to meet all of you. XOXO Lian BTW an angry student started a FB page. You should check it out. http://www.facebook.com/group.php?v=info&gid=315378158328
Foxy_Rei ·
Thanks, Lian... I'll see if I can come on Thursday, depends on what time it is... so we'll see. But I'll see if I can stop by on Saturday, other than Amber's workshop I don't have anything else going on at the moment... maybe I'll bug my roommates and we'll all come down! *hint hint, ladies* 😜 I'll take another look at the money situation and see if I can dig up the money, but it's doubtful.
azriel ·
BTW an angry student started a FB page. You should check it out. http://www.facebook.com/group.php?v=inf ... 5378158328 I just joined the group!
Dayanara ·
ut I'll see if I can stop by on Saturday, other than Amber's workshop I don't have anything else going on at the moment... maybe I'll bug my roommates and we'll all come down! *hint hint, ladies* 😜 I would love to come down and meet Lian, for sure! 🙂
Gsylass ·
Hear hear, Webmaster, I totally agree. 🫡 Way to go Veena, you are wonderful! 🥂 Lian, I'm so sorry this has happened, for you and all the students! 😢 **heads off to investigate facebook group**
I'm going to throw in another perspective here (Is that's what's called being a devil's advocate? I don't know, lol). Anywho, this situations has been bothering me, and I can't help but take this situation personally (even though it has nothing to do with me) because I am a NYPD student and I do know Wendy and Anna. They are both great instructors and are wonderful people to all of the students at NYPD. All of the instructors at NYPD are amazing at what they do, and I have the upmost respect for pole instructors in general because they have the desire to share their passion with as many students as possible. And I also appreciate this website because it brings so many people together to give varying opinions. With that being said, the more I think about this situation, the more I understand why Wendy and Anna took the actions that they did. USPDF--just like Body & Pole and NYPD--is a business. To me, their actions had nothing to do with them being greedy or spiteful about another studio hosting some workshops. I'm sure they weren't rubbing their hands together and laughing at all of this. Like it or not, you need money in order to make money, and in order to put on a competition such as this, you need money and SPONSORSHIPS. Sponsorship, I believe, is the reason why all of this is happening. While I hate that all of this happened, in my eyes, if you submit for my competition, and I agree to fly you to the location where the competition is being held and I agree to pay for your lodging while you're there, I would expect for you to be around for my purposes because I may have other things lined up for you, like interviews, photo shoots, and the like or whatever. How would that work out if you're someplace else doing workshops at another location on my dime? I would try to shut the situation down, as they did. Like it or not, in all things that we love, money can sometimes play a factor. Like I've stated, I believe this all had to do with sponsorship, which, to me, isn't a problem given the fact that pole studios and pole federations are businesses. Yes, they care about us as students and yes they should work more to promote a cohesive unit, but they are still businesses. Many people view pole dancing as a sport and pole dancers as athletes. Many athletes and sports federations seek out sponsorships. Lian, you seem like a really sweet person, and I know that you meant no malice when scheduling your workshops, but like I've stated, I don't think it had anything to do with one studio not wanting another to host workshops. Wendy and Anna would have totally been fine with Body & Pole having workshops during the time they were paying for the competitors IF (in my opinion) Body & Pole was a sponsor. If they were as greedy and spiteful, they could have easily started scheduling workshops for Sunday as well. In order for USPDF to be successful enough to have future opportunities for aspiring competitors, they need those sponsorships. You probably don't care to have anything to do with USPDF in the future, but this is just something to think about. Also like I've stated, Wendy and Anna are really nice people, and they also happen to be running a business. I'm not business-minded, but a friend of mine is, and her explanation is the reason why I can see Wendy and Anna's side more. Lian, I sincerely hope that you, Wendy and Anna will be able to have a dialogue about this in the future. It may not change anything now but I hope that you're able to talk with them about this because in the end it sucks for everyone: the students at these studios, the owners and instructors, the people who have signed up for these workshops and are spending their money to come for this competition, the competitors, everybody. Especially since one of your own instructors is also a competitor just like a few are from NYPD. Like I've stated, I know that you didn't have any ulterior motives and you wanted as many people as possible to have the experience of learning from some of the best, but I think they were perhaps blind-sided about this. Sponsorship is my theory, and like it or not, it's needed in situations like this. When you feel that you're losing money and sponsorship from another entity, you start to do what you can to make sure you're still ok in the end. Lian, I believe that you know that Wendy and Anna are good people. While you don't like how they've played their hand, I personally believe that they support Body & Pole and everything that you're doing, and they also believed in your talent as well as Kyra's for you all to have been past and current USPDF competitors. I know that this came off as being extremely biased, but I just wanted to throw another perspective in this. I know that some of you may not agree with what I've had say, but before you continue to express opinions about people (that you may or may not know) just know that there's always several versions of a situation. Lian has told her side, and I'm sure that USPDF will express their side in time. . So can we all now sing kumbaya and continue to look forward to these workshops (wherever you're taking them) and this competition, please! And like Angel1201 said, for the love of pole. 🥂 And thanks, Veena, to being so generous with your time.
Foxy_Rei ·
And to play devil's advocate to your devil's advocate, with all due respect, I think that Wendy and Anna could have at least had to courtesy to speak to Lian about their reasons. If it is a legitimate issue like sponsorship, then why couldn't they return her phone calls and say so? However, thanks for your input and offering another perspective on the situation. 🙂
amy ·
hey sandybrown, i totally appreciate your opinion. you have personal relationshisp with them where as i don't. it sounds like you are stuck a little between knowing they are nice people and seeing their actions in this situation and how they affect others. have you heard of cognitive dissonance? sorry, i was a psych MA candidate 😉 i DO believe strongly that to retroactively prevent these women from having workshops elsewhere, rather than placing the clause in their contracts, is bad business and very distasteful. to me, that's plain old unfair. furthermore-- to not communicate about it with lian? that's just... ugh! come on, we're all adults here. i think my biggest problem is that i do not agree with NYPD profiting from USPDF activities when other studios cannot. the dues that women pay to be part of USPDF are theoretically funding USPDF activites, because USPDF is supposed to be a unifying organization that exists for the good of the pole community. if workshops were being held where all the profits were being funneled back into USPDF activites, i would be fine with it... but there's no such stipulation in any of hte information about hte workshops, and it seems unfair that NYPD might profit (when it's USPDF that is paying for the competitiors to fly out) while other studios cannot. what are the thousands of dollars in dues going to? what about the ticket sales? do any other NY studios even have the option of sponsorship? this whole thing, honestly, has made me lose my trust completely in the USPDF and its ability to conduct business ethically. i won't be cancelling my workshops there, because it means a lot to me to take classes with these women and spots elsewhere are no longer available... but after all is said and done i will be using my energy to support another organization in the future. pole dancing isn't about this kind of cattiness. people have worked too hard for that.
I was a psych major in college, whoo hoo! But I couldn't tell you much about what I learned because I completely forgot what I learned. Although, I do know that cognitive dissonance was thrown in the mix, lol. That's what I'm not understanding, the communication part. I know that people are busy and all, but what happened with the communication here? This whole thing is just bad communication, and we all know what happens when people can't communicate. Even when they found out about the Body & Pole workshops, before making the competitors sign contracts, why not speak to Lian first about all of this? But I think one thing USPDF can definitely learn about this is to have better communication in the future. I also think in a weird way that it's a good thing that this is out in the open, so that if the USPDF is not living up to what they feel their mission is, then they need to retreat and think about how they want their image to be for the future. Also, to answer your question Amy, I believe pole studios have the option of being affiliated business programs. I have no idea if that's even considered helping to sponsor. This whole thing is making my head hurt. I don't like seeing people sad, mad, and upset. 😢
anngiern ·
hmmm... well i had been reading everyone's posts and decided to post my opinion...sure people might not agree but here it goes.. i first like to say that i have much respect for ALL pole studio instructors and owners. it is not easy to run a dance studio. i first talked to wendy a while back when there were just a few studios in the country (about 4 years ago) on the phone. i had talked to her to get some general business advice since there were so few studios at the time and she we very helpful but direct. when i have students from atlanta and houston that visit nyc i recommend this studio (more than anything b/c of her bio and experience) and s factor possbily if they are a beginner student. its fun to get different perspectives of pole dancing to enrich your own personal style. something i love about pole dancing. i have never spoken to or met with anna. i only have received emails from her in regards to uspdf and hosting the regionals in the south for the next upcoming year. but other than that i dont have any kind of personal relationship with these ladies. it takes an enormous amount of energy, time, and money to pull off these types of events. and you need money to make these things happen. and these ladies are running a business. i have been running my studio for 4 years and i definitely had to make some hard decisions in which people were very unhappy. but that is the nature of running a business. i really had to toughen up or get taken advantage of. i had to to read a lot of business books and network with other business owners to get a better grip on how to handle legal matters (there is a studio in cali that is using our name and we are federally trademarked and have been for years)...i played nice and talked to her via phone...she pretty much told me to leave her the f**** alone and i was being a bitch...uh no i am not..i am protecting my company's interest (all of my instructors, students, business partners and owners of future locations) and it is illegal for you to do that. the fact that i am even giving you a courtesy call is very generous of me when i could just take you straight to court. so off to court we go...she is in for a very rude awakening and wont be happy when she gets served next month with papers. i dont want to be like that but i have no choice. i say all that to make the point that even though pole dancing is so much fun, challenging, a great way to meet other women, etc...there is still a business component that has to be handled. If you dont handle it you can be out of business...and in the end the students suffer b/c they wont have a studio to go to anymore 😢 now i have not seen the original contract that these ladies signed so that is why i personally will not take sides. one thing i have learned... there is always 3 sides to every story: nypd's, lian's, and the truth. i am not calling anyone a liar by any means but its truly not fair to make a judgement on a situation without having all the information. i do however empathize with lian in regards to having to cancel all those girls workshops and that truly sucks all around. VEENA..i think its great that you offered to do workshops that weekend..that is extremely sweet of you. i hope i get to meet you that weekend. But I can see how USPDF/NYPD might have been blindsided by this and they truly could have had other things planned for them that weekend and there are probably other things involved with this situation that we probably are not even aware of (media, pictures, afterparties,etc) . I am sure for the next one they will be a little more clear about what is expected. Ladies, the USPDF is still a new organization and they have kinks to work out. No one is perfect. I have been doing this for over 4 years now and I know so much more now than I did almost 5 years ago when I started my business. And everyday I am still learning new things about how to run a successful business. What I am thankful for is that the USPDF has brought some of the best pole dancers (and more to be discovered) to a national level. I am so grateful for that. I feel so blessed to come to new york and be around tons of women who love pole dancing. ok..kumbaya...back to pole dancing 🤸
Veena ·
Sorry I have been absent from this thread, as some of you know I was busy packing and preparing my family for a big trip. 16 hrs of traveling and we are finally at our destination so, here are my feelings on this......Forgive me if it doesn't make complete sense, I have been awake since 3am! 😲 I want you to all understand WHY I stepped in to replace the canceled workshops....I saw a frustrated studio owner who did what she could to work around USPDF, and I knew there would be disappointed students, so when I see a need I can fill I try my best the help! Yes this situation up set me!! BUT I do NOT think that publicly bad mouthing USPDF, is the right way to go about showing our disappointment in the situation with the competitors. I saw a FB page was created stating that USPDF is a fake pole organization 😨 and was very sad to see such a thing 😢 I don't agree with some of things the USPDF has done, and I am disappointed in the way they have handled some situations, but that doesn't mean we need to get nasty. 😈 What you all talk about in private is up to you but lets try to be respectful of all our fellow pole peeps. The best way to fix a problem is to find a better solution, name calling and fighting will get us know where..... 🤓 🤓
I'm agreeing with the minority here. I completely agree that if the USPDF (and/or the sponsors) of the event paid for the competitors to come out and for their stay in NY then the competitors should not be teaching elsewhere. That is pretty much standard practice in any industry. I'm a bit confused by the comment that the students of Body and Pole would not be able to "afford" the USPDF workshops? This implies that the workshop prices at B&P undercut the prices at the USPDF workshops? When the USPDF is paying for these women to come out and now someone else is profitting off of their expenses, that doesn't seem quite fair either. Additionally, it was stated that they could not teach these workshops between 3/18 and 3/20? Does that mean that outside of these dates, they COULD have taught workshops? The problem here is that in planning the thought never occured to Wendy and Anna that such a thing might occur and I'm guessing they would have had the same issue with ANY school arranging workshops with the competitors not just non-USPDF schools. The competitors are only there for ONE reason and because of the USPDF. Should Wendy or Anna have called or taken calls from Body and Pole? I don't think so. Their issue is NOT with B&P..it is with their competitors. That is who they dealt with. Conversely...did B&P call USPDF to see if this would be a problem for them if they hired the girls to teach while on the USPDF dollar? I'm guessing the answer will be that B&P didn't feel they were required to call USPDF...but conversley, USPDF didn't have a situation nor even any jurisdiction with B&P. When I ran our event in Jamaica this past fall....every woman involved talked to me to find out IF they were allowed to earn money in any other way through teaching or selling products while they were there. No one presumed that they could just make money without talking to me. I'm certain the competitors never thought about it in this situation...just as Wendy and Anna didn't think about it. As for membership fees.....it takes money to run and organization and frankly I'm appalled that anyone would question the ethics behind charging for membership especially for such a nominal fee...and trust me...that is nominal compared to their costs for their time and investments at their end. Everyone wants someone to set up and manage a professional organization but would you devote all your time and invest money in websites, events, etc for free if it was you? In the first year of being the US rep for the IPF I invested several thousand dollars in setting it up, running and attending events for the IPF in the US....I "made" about $200 in membership fees if memory serves me correct. And we never did ANYTHING on the scale of the USPDF competitions! As for "their" certification...they can charge whatever they like for their cerfication. It's already been discussed on here that certifications require a lot of investment of time and money on the part of the developers. I've looked their certification over and discussed it with them and it seems in line -for all that they are offering when you get certfied - with the costs of other certifications. But the real point is....you don't HAVE to be certified through Climb & Spin if you dont want to and you dont have to be certified through them to belong to the USPDF. There is a lot to consider here...on both sides. I do think that a Facebook page denouncing another person, business or organization is unprofessional and petty. I think that is wrong to do. If you think the USPDF is wrong, ok, that is your opinion, but two wrongs don't make a right! It also shed a poor light on the pole dance industry as a whole making us all look catty.
There have been alot of opinions about the alleged goings on, here are facts about how the law views these allegations: 1) Unless otherwise governed by contract a person may do as they wish with their time, whatever that is, regardless of how they arrived at a location or by whose means. 2) Flight and/or Room are not generally considered compensation or consideration. 3) Forcing someone to renege on a contract through using duress is blatantly illegal. 4) Amended contracts with no additional consideration are generally un-enforceable. I would also like to agree with Veena, let's not drag USPDF out in this. We do not know the entire situation.
anngiern ·
yes the FB page is extremely tacky and i was so disappointed to see that not the way to solve anything veena..i agree. my business partner majored in dance and has done numerous dance competitions/conventions and that is VERY STANDARD for you not to be allowed to hold workshops elsewhere. USPDF memberhship fees....very cheap...even some of my nursing associations fees were way higher than that. climb and spin certifications fees...yeah i remember reading that..that is very much in line with what it should be...honestly it should be more..Its one thing to be able to do pole dancing and another thing to be able to teach it and run a studio. Two different jobs. They are giving you the tools on how to teach pole dancing and run a successful business. This saves you time and money. I have wasted THOUSANDS of dollars back in the day on the wrong floors, wrong clothes, wrong types of poles etc... when pole dancing was just getting started and nobody knew any better b/c we were all new to this. not to mention how to negotiate rent with landlords, find dependable contractors (electricians, plumbers, general studio maintenance), finding vendors, getting the proper insurance..website designer, trademark lawyer,the list goes on...so to be able to get that information from someone from the start of your business is invaluable. Also to get choreography included in this price is a very big deal. my business partner and i have both done choreography for other types of dance and we both easily charged 2000 to 3000 to put a piece together. my business partner has even charged more than that b/c she has a BFA in Dance. many people have no clue how to put a curriculum together..let alone put together routines. i get calls and emails every month from aspiring studio owners who want to know how to put that part of their business together. OC pole fitness charges 3000-5000 for their certification,pole fitness studio in miami charges between 2000-3000, urban fertility dancer charges starting at 2500, aradia fitness starts at 1800 and up and goddess dance 3500 to 7500. But you dont have to get certified through any of these organizations. If you feel you already have all the knowledge and "know how" to start a studio then that is your choice. you either pay for the secret sauce or you make your own 👍
Hey everyone. I want to say here that I DO NOT think that Anna and Wendy are bad people. I do on the other hand think that what they did was very wrong on many levels. I know that for a fact because I saw the initial contract. There was nothing in it saying that they can not teach at other studio, USPDF or non USPDF. in my email to them, I offered to split all the travel and accommodation costs with them, in case that was the issue, but like I said before, never got ANY reply to phone calls, text messages emails etc. Because I considered these women my friends, knowing our past relationship with me competing in last years nationals and them asking me to compete again, as well as Kyra who teaches at Body & Pole, I never imagined that things would come down to this. I worked around their schedule to make sure there was no conflict, and the girls are available to do anything they might need to do for the USPDF, other than a small 2 hour window where they would come to B&P to teach. I also made sure they were all scheduled to teach at B&P after their last scheduled workshop at NYPD, making sure there are no Liability issues if God forbid they get hurt teaching at B&P. The only person who has all their airfare and hotel accommodations paid for by the USPDF is Jenyne, as they hired her to perform and teach workshops. The rest of the girls had to pay for their own hotels and some for their own flights. As for sponsorship, if that was the case than why wouldn't they get back to me to discuss the issue and maybe ask me to pay some money as a sponsor? I actually offered to split their costs for the instructors with them. I even told the girls I would fully pay for them, hotels and airfare if the USPDF wouldn't do so. The USPDF and NYPD should be completely separated entities. If it was NYPD bringing some girls here for workshops at their studio, I would have never even though to book them at B&P and let NYPD pay to fly them out here... But since I considered myself and the studio affiliated with the USPDF on many levels (maybe not officially as I just opened it and never had the chance to apply online), I thought they would be happy to support me and my studio. I disagree that they should have not contacted me, this is not the girls fault as they knew very well that their contract said nothing about teaching at other studios. So did I as I had to sign the same contract last year. Sending a revised contract in retrospect is absolutely poor business management in my opinion. in my email to them, I told them that based on the fact that non of the parties thought this was ever going to be an issue, and we already have full workshops, PLEASE just THIS TIME, let this go. No one would get hurt, and no one needs to know about this. I even told them this is going to possibly hurt THEM in the long run and not me or my studio, and maybe they want to avoid it. NO REPLY. I decided to charge less for the workshops because I didn't think that $75 was reasonable when people are already paying so much just to come here and see the competition. I charge only $60 and pay the instructors 85% out of that. So money was never my concern when booking these workshops. My students and the pole dance community and instructors were my priority. I was one of you when I came to VA in October and paid for tickets, hotels and workshops, so I knew how difficult this can get. I am so sorry that this has become such an issue. I do agree in hindsight that the FB page is wrong. I am only human and got a bit giddy at first as I felt that I wasn't in this alone, but I do agree that there is no need for hate. I will ask the girl to remove it. I just wanted everyone to know WHY I had to cancel those workshops. Everyone needed to know that the USPDF isn't there to represent ALL studios and students, as they very clearly proved by their actions. I don't hate Wendy or Anna, I just think they owe a lot of people an explanation and an apology. This is not how you run a federation. Even if it is new and they might make mistakes, this is more than just an innocent mistake, as I gave them every opportunity to back out of it and let the girls teach these workshops. I really truly hope that they will reach out to me, and talk to me. The fact that they never bothered to do that just showed me that they knew they couldn't give me a real solid reasonable explanation as to why these girls can't teach 1 workshop each on Saturday at my studio. All they could do was threaten the girls and then send them a revised contract when the threats didn't work. I hope this clears things out a bit more. I HATE DRAMA. But I will stand up for what I think is right and wrong. And this was wrong on so many levels. Much love and respect to all of you, even Wendy and Anna. Lian Body & Pole
amcut ·
People of the minority! The problem is the revised contract. You just can't do that. It's rude. What should have happened, is Wendy and Anna were like, "Holy hell, these bitches are doing work on the side!", and then the NEXT year, they'd have a contract where the days were USPDF business only. You can't just whip that shit out of nowhere. Or you can.... but it's a little in bad taste. I'm not saying CRUCIFY SEXIEST WOMAN IN UNIVERSE .. I'm just saying.. "Ooh. Glad she's sexy, 'cause that shit is kind of.. in bad taste" Anyways. Facebook page also in bad taste, but so are two pieces on a fatty, and this one wont ever quit!
We do not know the entire situation. I think this is the main point that "the minority" is making. We don't know both sides and there ARE two sides.
USPDF is supposedly a supportive federation. that's what strikes me here: the apparent lack of support for a sister studio. i find that sad. veena, you are the best !
I have to agree with amcut on this one, I can see both sides of the story BUT this was something that Wendy and Anna should have thought about and put in their original contract instead of going back after the girls had already agreed to do workshops and had students sign up to attend and then telling them they were no longer allowed to. Just my .02!
Foxy_Rei ·
Now that I've heard from both sides, I'm not sure if I'm more angry or less, to be honest. Less angry because there are quite possibly some legit reasons for Wendy and Anna's actions (well, most of their actions). More angry because if they were justified, then why didn't they communicate with Lian personally to sort it out? Instead they broke the law and made the dancers sign a new contract. As many have pointed out, since USPDF is still fairly new and are learning the ins and outs of this new business venture, why couldn't they have just said "oops", remember that for next time, but solve the present situation in a professional manner? Instead I'm getting the impression they said "oh snap!" and are scrambling to protect their bottom line. They have no excuse for how they handled the situation, even if they were "right" to begin with. As far as the membership fee for USPDF goes, I said before that I don't like the idea of paying to be a member - that's because I don't know what the average poler like myself would benefit from it. $60 a year is a lot of money when it just gets you newsletters and preferred seating at a competition. I'm sure for the more serious polers that it would definitely do a lot more. I'm just not going to pay for something that I'm not going to personally benefit from enough to make it worth it, that's all. While we all seem to agree that perhaps this has gotten out of hand (with the Facebook page, etc. ), I do think that USPDF needs to understand how the poling community feels about how this situation was handled. While a more subtle, "professional" and civil response would have still done the job, I don't know if it would have been as effective. Several people have been very hurt and angered by all this and I think USPDF needs to get that message - especially since Lian's professional response went completely ignored, it seems that a different approach may be required. Pricing for the workshops should be up to the individual studios, especially since B&P isn't affiliated with USPDF or NYPD. No one should take offense to the fact that Lian decided to price hers lower, even if she stated that she thought the USPDF ones were overpriced (while it is understandable that USPDF's prices are higher because of them hosting the event or whatever). She wasn't taking any of their business since all their workshops were already full and the only obligations she had were to her studio, the dancers, and the students. She wasn't offering competition, she was offering an alternative. It is very sad that all this has gotten out of hand, but I don't think that the pole-public outcry is anything for us to feel guilty about or condemn those that participated. This is a free country and we all have the right to express ourselves - freedom of speech - and seeing as this is a forum not a courtroom or something I don't see why any of us should feel the need to censor ourselves. We're having a discussion of our opinions here, not an argument, and none of us have the right to say that anyone here is wrong.
So...after reading the OTHER thread on here...it appears that Body and Pole initiated contact through attorney? In which case, no one who gets involved in a legal dispute should every have personal contact with the other party once an attorney is involved. Also, Body and Pole is having workshops...the competitors are only not allowed to do workshops elsewhere the day which they are scheduled to do workshops all day long at the USPDF?
where is the OTHER thread ?
