[abcollins1]

Look, im sorry my answers are not popular, im sorry that people seem to think that they know more than they do and are not willing to admit that this puts them out of their scope of knowledege.

But I have answered op's question several times over.

She asked Specifically about wanting to add protein powders for 1)recovery and 2) muscle building.

1) protein powders are not a recovery aid any more than chicken or beef is and

2) it is not going to help build muscles without being in a calorie surplus, without hitting other macros and without being on a progressive training program.

 

As the conversation progressed we discovered:

Op has past history of ED

OP is on Paleo type diet (restrictive eating patterns)

OP is skipping breakfast (does not matter if tied to ED or not, still an issue)

OP wants to stay lean

Specifically OP wants to take protein powders at nearly 10pm

 

So does OP NEED to add in protein powder????? No.

BEFORE adding in ANY supplements, first look at diet. Why does op feel the need to add in protein, because she doesnt think she is hitting her protein levels, but is skipping meals. FIX: eat more protein at breakfast and there should be no need to eat after last pole class. All of this talk about magic "windows" is debunked. As long as she is getting proper cal levels any time during the day, she is not going to go into a catabolic state and start eating at muscle tissue. 2000 cals during the day is 2000 cals no matter how you chop them up or when you eat them. The body is not on any kind of "clock" it doesnt know what time it is,

On top of that it is VERY VERY EXTREMELY difficult to work out to such an extent to completely deplete muscle glycogen to the point you would need to eat any specific thing. Typically you have to structure a diet and training program SPECIFICALLY around muscle depletion. On top of that, the body has a harder time converting protein into glycogen, so carbs would be your best bet to restore glycogen (and is usually what it manipulated in order to deplete said glycogen). I can promise that even a pole class is not enough to deplete glycogen enough to warrant needing to eat specifically for that reason.

Now, to the fact of the ED, OP needs to seek out her professionals to determine if she is ready to take the step to muscle building, which requires EATING above maintenance, gaining weight, counting calories, etc….. As we do not have the experience or knowledge to say if this path is right for op at this time, the correct thing to do is to have her ask her team this, NOT to provide a bunch of info that has nothing to do with OP's situation or goals (stated goal of building muscle).

Now, I hope i have made my points clear as to why op needs to focus on whole foods and why op needs to speak with her professionals. Its all well and good to say i take this and that, but there are other things op needs to look at BEFORE supplementing.

[abcollins1]

I understand you want to research, i understand that its all really expensive, but the thing is, that we really are not qualified to give you what you want. Without knowing key factors, your current diet, workout schedule, past triggers, your weight, height age, body composition, health issues…… it doesnt matter what we have done personally.

The things that I would tell a person without an ed are not things that YOU specifically need to be doing. Usually I would tell someone wanting to add muscle to up cals and weigh either weekly or monthly to control rate of gain. This is obviously something that triggers you and needs to be accounted for. In order to gain muscle you have to monitor it, you need to know cals and macros, you need to be on a good progressive program. And this goes into changing your body, how it looks how it feels.

Me I just came off a 12 month muscle building time, gained 20 pounds, i look much different than i did a year ago and now need to pull it back another 10 pounds, this is the cycle that normally happens. One which may or may not cause issues with an ED, which is why i am saying

You need to be on a diet plan'

You need to be on a training Plan

This needs to be done with and by someone who has experience in working with ED and who can monitor you and get you to your goals safely.

Is it going to cost more?? Yes, but you have a condition which requires, even in recovery, special attention to more than just "eat more and train" which is what is needed.

Whatever I do or what anyone else does here, doesnt matter in what YOU have to deal with or need to do.

The 2 links i provided will give you plenty of info on supplements and why most of them are not needed. Unless you have your diet on point, you dont need protein. If your diet is not on point, this means correct calorie and macro nutrient levels, then that is the first thing you "fix". Hoewever, counting cals, counting macros is not something i can advise you to do with an ED, again why it should be monitored by an RD.

You may be in recovery, and i am really glad, but this is the type of lifestyle that attracts and retriggers people with ED's because it can get to a point where it justifes old habits. All the countig all the monitoring, all the workiing out and training.

 As you said, you are more like an alcoholic in this, where one drink can send them down. Im not saying its impossible, but it would be  best not to take this on on your own, even finding a personal trainer who has experience would be better.

I know lots of programs and diets, building muscle/losing fat, that is all my job is…but none of them are going to be truly safe or healthy when dealing with an ED unless you have experienced help.

Whether you need to add protein, when where and what, those are questions that should be asked of someone who knows way more of your situation, I do not think that is wasting either your time or your doctor;s time, that is their job to guide you.

 

 

[abcollins1]

Actually you should read what i wrote, i answered her question and then she posted her history of ED, at which point every post i replied to her encouraged her to ask the people she worked with.

You responded to questions which had all ready been answered without looking at her posts, which means you completely missed the ED history, then you proceed to say well i take this for these reasons… when if you had read OP doesnt need to listen to us, she needs to speak to her own team.

You keep going on about stuff that doesnt matter and there is no way to know what is in the supplements you take, even if it is labled 100% whole or whatever.

Yes she is an adult but so are you and you should take something like this more seriously, ED's are nothing to be played with and just say "well she should know better" is irresponsiple and dangerous. She needs more help and support than these boards can give, and for her, seeking out her own team off these boards is the best. No other suggestions should be made even if it is what "you do"…

[abcollins1]

Im not sure you really have researched the supplement industry if you think they list all of their ingredients and that they are healthy and will not harm you.

You see, a few months ago, Jacked and Oxy Elite Pro were forced to change their product ingredients because they were linked to deaths. They were banned by the FDA from using DMAA. Now both products contain Yohimbine, which is a whole other box of worms. These were both extremely popular products that people assumed were safe. Same was done with Ephedra and HCG…..

Also,most companies do not list the ingredients (nor is there any law or regulation making them do so), usually they chalk it up to "propietry blend" and you have no idea what you are really taking or how much. They are also well know to throw illegal substances in their products without labeling it (and this is how many bodybuilders test positive for drugs when they did not take them, they only took a supplement.)

Again I have to point out that OP has a past history of ED and unless you have experience with supplements and treating those with an ED, it is inappropriate to do anything but point her to ask her questions to her professionals which would have a much better grasp of what OP needs in terms of diet, supplements, and health.

[abcollins1]

I will give you two links that explain supplements well, and i suggest spending a lot of time on the site as well. Lyle is the bomb and really knows his stuff, his books are really great too if you are looking for more in depth info on the body.

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/supplements-part-1.html

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/supplements-part-2.html

 

[abcollins1]

I say the BCAA's are ineffective because if you are all ready consuming them in food, then mega dosing with them as a supplemnt is useless. Studies show they are only effective when a low protein diet is used, and if you are taking protein shakes and otherwise have a diet high in protein (ie, meeting or exceeding your needs) then the supplement is just a waste of money (as most supplements are).

Supplements are a big business, they are unregulated, and you have no idea what you are getting in them (dosage or ingredient wise). Your best bet is to take as little supplements as you can and to eat as much real wholesome food as you can,

I would be very hessitant to suggest anything other than whole food to a person who has a past history of ED. They have a lot more issues to deal with than to waste time, money and energy, on supplements that is not needed for anyone really.

[abcollins1]

http://www.jissn.com/content/10/1/5

Studies support that overall calorie intake is more important than any nutrient timing, Also the whole ED thing supports this as well.

BCAA's also not effective.

[abcollins1]

Even in women without ed's the gain is hard and the concept of gaining some fat freaks them out. I see lots of it all the time, where girls will claim they want to gain muscle, gain 2 pounds, freak out, and then slash cals and add in cardio until they lose the 2 pounds. Then they wonder why they never get the results they want 6 months later.

This is also where you get the "im a hard gainer" or "i just put on fat when i up my cals" (none of wich is true). Its hard to convince women to eat to gain muscles.

So really its a mental issue of coming to terms that your body will change, the scale will go up, you will not stay lean, and some fat will come. Usually this is a process where you gain and then lose, but again, its not something i can advise you on with an ed history.

Typically, if i have a client with an ED history, I work with their MD and RD and will not work with clients who do not have that support. Its also not something I  would do over the internet. Im not trying to be offensive, its just a whole other ball game that requires more than just giving a plan to someone and letting them go. Even though I am not a MD, i take 'do no harm" seriously.

If you have a team al ready, then i would say the best place to ask your question and get guidence is your team. They would know your situation better and would be better informed to give you the answers you need.

Hugs and good luck!!

[abcollins1]

Having an ED past is a tricky thing, because as you are aware, you are never really "cured". And the thing is to gain muscle, you have to eat at a surplus which does mean some fat gains. This doesnt mean it will need to be a ton of fat, but you are not going to be able to "stay lean" and gain any real amount of muscle. Women can only gain around 5 pounds in a year, and that is if everything it done perfectly.

Typically you will look to see a around a 1.5 to 2 pound gain a month. And with your ED past, it might not be wise to do this without some help.

I would advise to seek out professional help to get to your goals. You do not want to trigger any past habits and you want to stay healthy but adding muscle is a hard, slow process and is not easy even without an ED.

To answer your questions: A protein shake can help to get cals in, but you need to be more focused on eating whole real foods and not relying on shakes to make up calories at this point. You do not have to eat "straight after a workout", hitting your cals and macro needs is more important to you now than timing.

I can not advise too much more than to seek help IRL with professionals. This type of lifestyle usually attratcs and can make EDs "reappear" and I doubt many here, if any, are qualified to give more specific advise over the net.

[abcollins1]

Squats and deadlifts dont exactly cross over to pole specific movements well. Yes they are a traditional strengthening exercise and one of the best, but when talking about transferring that strength to pole work, its not quite the same movement.

I think Koi and i have the same ideas. An L sit or straddle hold on the floor would be a more pole specific move (and i believe that is what she is describing in her post). I dont care how many squats you do those suckers are hard!! and they must be specifically trained for. I have been training them for a while because i have been working towards fitness competition routines and it is one of the required moves.  And if i forget to train them, i lose it and have to start over again.

[abcollins1]

If you have super tight hammies, then straightening your leg out would be painful/not able to happen. The correction is stretching them often until they become more flexible, less tight. Forward bends and other hammie stretching exercises i would say 3 or 4 times a week.

Another thing may be over all core strength (not just abs) or hip flexor strength. Correction for that would be off pole strengthening exercises for hip flexors and core (to include shoulder girdle, back, hips. glutes and abs)…Im a big believer in cross training to improve performance specific goals.

[abcollins1]

I use a few supplemements, but specifically protein powder wise, I use optimum nuttitions Gold Standard Whey and when cutting cals, caesin. I find they are low carb, high protein, quality ingredients, with low sugar and a great taste. I use them more when i dont have a chance to eat (like in between classes/jobs) or in the mornings before classes, because it makes me sick if i eat any solid foods before cardio (just me, ymmv).

As far as building muscle, you need to be in a calorie surplus to build muscle. Your body needs extra fuel to actually build so if you are not eating slightly above maintence calores, then you are not building muscle. So please do not think that adding in protein or protein powders alone will build muscle.

Also know that there is no real NEED for protein powders, if you are eating a diet rich in protein all ready and are getting enough protein there, then there is no reason to purchase supplements. I know all the marketing says you should, but really its only a convienence issue.

I also dont really think its a recovery booster per se, Having the correct calories and correct macro levels as well as adequate sleep/rest and a properly set up training program will be the best thing for recovery. I mean, you dont eat 8 ozs of chicken or beef for recovery, so a protein supplement isnt going to do much recovery wise except help you hit your cals and macros better.

For taking them, i mix them in about 6oz of water, whey is taken as needed and caesin is taken when dieting down at bedtime (slow digesting, keeps you fuller longer, no need to wake up hungry). Again, this isnt an everyday thing as i prefer to get my protein from actual foods, shakes should only be a supplement and not the basis of a diet.

Benefits, are ease of use, and easier to fit foods into my diet plan. Other than that, there is no real special "magic" about protein.

[abcollins1]

I bought this book and was it was not what i was expecting. I thought it would give more insight into specifically training for pole. As a personal trainer and fitness instructor, i found it to be the same information that I have all ready studied for years through various courses and certifications. I didnt find it overwhelming, the information was accurate, but gave me no new insight like I was hoping for. It gives the basics of any training program, and i am glad that now people may realize there is more to training for any fitness related goal than they think. Yes it is deeper than may be thought at first glance into A&P, but in order to know why we do certain things, you need at least a basic knowledge of how the body works.

If you feel like it is overwhelming, my advice would be to take notes and do more research on your own into the points that you werent sure about. The more informed you are, the better you can apply that knowledge to your own body/training and to those you teach as well.

[abcollins1]

Thank you for all of the info. I had not considered some of the points brought up. Im thinking that the pole sleeve is out as an idea, because i still want to use my pole as a regular pole, just need better grip.

Someone mentioned powder coating, i have no idea how to start looking into that or if my pole would fit in my car for transport (im not even sure my car is 7 ft long total! lol). The pole was delieverd by UPS and has never been out of my garage.

Right now i am leaning towards the SV pole more and more.

[abcollins1]

First, you should not feel bad for how you look. Wherever you are at now is just your starting point. Everyone has a starting point, for some they are overweight, some are underweight, some are at a good weight but "skinny fat" (this is very common). If you want to change your body, it takes lots of time, patience and work.

Being undermuscled is nothing to feel bad about. Most women are undermuscled because they do not train for it, and their lifestyle doesnt support it, and poorly set up diets do not consider that we need to feed our muscles.

I started out undermuscled as well due to years of poor training and very bad dieting , it has taken me nearly 4 years to bring up my muscle to a decent base.

The exercises that Jacki C said are fine, but unless you eat to gain muscle, those exercises will be useless.

Also, i would like to encourage you to educate yourself about proper nutrition and exercising. I can recommend the books New Rules of Lifting for Women and Starting Strength. Both have excellent info, nutrition plans, and workout plans that are effective. Some great websites to read are bodyrecomposition.com  alanaragon.com and emma-leigh.com as well as Leigh Peele. Thos are some of the greatest minds in the fitness industry and lay out great info in a way that is easy to understand.

I have a feeling that your nutritionist may not be telling you the correct info or is not understanding about physique training. They may be great at getting people to lose weight, but they may not have a great understanding of where to go from there.

[abcollins1]

i dont see judging or ugliness here. What i see are a lot of women sharing their stories and trying to help someone else from going down that same dark road of bad relationships with self and food. I think its safe to say that most of us have either been where she is now, or maybe deeper into the rabbit hole.

I have spent years undoing all of the bad i have done to my body, hopefully OP wont have to do the same, and I wish 4 years ago some one would have had the courage to tell me that i was under muscled and needed to build, that i needed some counseling (which i did go to), and that I would spend a long time undoing the harm that i did to my body just so i could be "skinny". In the end, healthy trumps skinny and hopefully OP will learn that easier and sooner than some of us did.

 

[abcollins1]

Trust me, its a very real frustration in the fitness industry as a whole. Those weight loss gimicks, pills. and promise of quick abs lead people to believe that they can get the body they want with minimal effort in 12 weeks.

People often seem like they only want to hear what they want and not the truth, so as a trainer/nutritionist/fitness instructor… its such a fine line to walk between keeping people coming to classes and training sessions and getting them results/not scaring them because the reality is changing the body is hard work and usually not what the magazines promote.

I always try to educate along with the training but it can be so hard to not get frusterated when there are tons of myths and gimicks all vying for their attention.

On the plus side, being a trainer gives me perspective to know that poling is challenging and will take time, part of the reason i love it so much IS the challenge.

[abcollins1]

I am 4'11 and at the moment 120 pounds. I started out at 104 pounds, just where you are at. i was undermuscled and carrying too much fat. I have spent the last 12 months working on gaining muscle. I went from 107 to 127 over that time. Over the last 7 weeks, i have lost 7 pounds, all while eating more than 1200 cals a day.

1200 probably is your BMR, that is what you need to survive if you just slept all day. With all of the working out you do, your maintenance is going to be closer to 1800 – 2000 (mine is 2200)

So please know that I am coming from the EXACT same place you are in. I am the same height and was the same weight as you when i started. And i have  loads of pics if you would like to see my journey over the last 4 years. Maybe that would help you see what adding muscle does at 4'11.

The advise of seeking counseling is not meant to be mean, there are real disorders out there and some of what you say sent up some red flags. Things like :i will love myself when i have a flat stomach" …severly restricting cals (under 1000 a day) and asking for more cardio… and then the food choices while very healthy, can indicate an issue with food. We can not diagnose you, we can only point out that your thinking when related to your body and exercise/diet may be an issue. Sometimes we can not see the issue and it takes an outside view to point things out to us.

As a trainer, i see this a lot and have had clients that I have had to turn down because they were not in a healthy place to begin training. I have a counsler that i recommend first and advise them that I can not train them without the ok of their MD and a counseler.

Being healthy and fit is MORE than looking the part. You need to be healthy in mind and spirit as well as the body. That is total fitness and its not something you achieve easily. That is why i asked you to take an HONEST look at what you are posting. I agree with the other poster that said it sounds like you are coming from a dark place.  If you feel there is no problems with your emotions and thinking, then cool..thats up to you, but the advice to seek counseling comes from a place of love and understanding.

[abcollins1]

I have read Tosca, and while i like many of her recipes, much of what she touts as "the way" has been proven by many studies to be incorrect. We have enough myths and deceptions in the fitness industry without people perpetuating them.

And you dont have to eat  :clean" to lose fat. Its up to the macros and how the diet is structured. Last time i did a cut, i ate chocolate every day and lost fat just fine. My cals were much higher than 1200 a day. Again, this is why Tosca is a cult. Food is not "good" or "bad" its not "clean" or "dirty" this kind of thinking leads to disorders and bad relationships with food. Instead, we need to shift focus on health and nutrients. While so called "clean: foods have more nutrients, other foods are just fine to eat and can be easily worked into an overall diet.

 the difference is that I read more than Tosca, i read people who actually use science to back up their methods, and i read studies and research the mess out of nutrition, sorta have to, its my job.

And we have all ready discussed "the body holding on to fat", and thats not the way it works. See the above posts and the link i referenced. Perhaps Leigh Peele can debunk some of the myths you are posting.

[abcollins1]

Im just curious if you read what she wrote?? She is not eating "bad" or unclean foods, telling her to "eat clean" is not helpful since al the foods she eats IS clean. There just isnt enough of it and there are missing nutrients. She doesnt need to eat 5 -6 meals. The amount of meals during the day is not relevent. Some people do better on 3 meals and some people need more. But the 5 – 6 meals a day is a myth that has been proven by studies. And I HATE when people use the extreme "1200 cals of gummy bears" No one is ever going to live straight off of gummy bears so please stop using that as a scare tactic for people to follow Tosca Reno's cult.

[abcollins1]

For a more indepth look (and prob a better exlanation) google starve mode from leigh peele.

[abcollins1]

"Starvation mode" really doesnt exist, i gave a very simplified explanation of it for brevity. Any time you lower cals under your maintenance, your body automatically down regulates metabolic activity. It automatically shuts down extracurricular activities (muscle building for one) because it does not have the energy to keep it going. The body is really all about maintaining and doesnt like to lose anything. So it starts cutting into the tissue that takes the most calories to maintain, muscle mass. If you are not strength training with enough cals and proteins in your diet, you will lose more muscle than fat due to the body process. This is why we stress both resistance training and adequate protein to preserve muscle mass and allow the body to let go of the fat. Its not "starvation mode" its what the body was designed to do and it takes manipulation of diet and exercise to overcome the body's natural tendencies.

Now the leaner you are body fat wise, the harder it will be to lose fat, the lower in weight you are the harder it will be to lose fat and the lower in lean body mass you are, the harder it will be to lose fat. So there are a lot of factors that come into play when looking at how to structure your diet and training.

The more you weigh, the more body fat you have and the more muscle mass you have, the easier it is to lose fat up to a point.

I dont think a flat stomach is out of the question for most women, it usually does take specific training and dieting to get there and most people are unwilling to spend years working on their physique to such a point, only for the sake of a flat tummy. It also takes a specific understanding of the body, and not many people are willing to go that far into it or learn it to get what they want.

There are also a ton of myths out there like "doing a ton of situps gives you abs" and while many people will say "abs are made in the kitchen" and "you cant spot reduce"  they have no real understanding behind WHY or HOW to get there. Many women dont want to add muscle, but that is usually the answer in many cases.

 

[abcollins1]

Ok, this may be long so I apologize in advance. But…

Unless you are 4ft tall and 60 pounds, your maintenance is NOT 1200, likely its more around 1800 – 2000 cals a day. Most calorie calculations do take into account for height, weight, age, However, those start at figuring your BMR first then multiplying by an activity factor.

There is no such thing as "starvation mode" as in which people think, If there were, then anorexics would all be super fat…  What does happen in the face of too low calories and especially too low protein, is that the body breaks down muscle in order to feed itself, therefore saving the fat until all the muscle tissue is gone. The fat will only go when the body has broken down all the muscle tissue it can. So eating under 1200 cals a day and not having enough protein in the diet, you are not going to lose fat at this time.

If you want a specific physique or look you have to actively work for it. Sometimes its not about losing fat, sometimes it is about building up certain parts to make others better. If you are undermuscled, it will take years of work to get to a decent base of muscles. A woman at best can only put on about 1/2 a pound of muscle on a month, so you are not going to add a ton of muscle. On top of that muscle requires 3 things to build: a progressive solid resistance program, sufficent calories and protein, and most importantly TIME! without those three things, you will not build muscle. Poling is great for the upper body but because it isnt progressive (resistance wise) you will only be able to take the muscle building so far.

Not only that, but muscle is metabolically  active,meaning that muscle burn more cals when at rest than fat. So the more muscles you have the faster you actually will burn fat. Those of us who pole would do well to add in some cross training with weights/resistance.

Now, when we ask women to up their calories, they see an initial weight gain and freak out. This may be why you think your maintenence is so low.  The weight gain is not fat and it does not mean you are gaining fat. It is glycogen and water and typically the water flushes out in the next week when the body adapts to the higher cals. This is why we say slowly up the cals so you can give your body time to adjust.

Now, in this case we are looking at 3 possibilities

either you are under muscled and do not have enough muscle to carry the look you want

You have a posture issue that is causing the belly to pooch,

or there is nothing wrong with your body and you are being way to harsh on yourself.

If you are undermuscled (which is likely given the low cals) then you need to work on building muscles all over your body so that you can correct the stomach pooch.

If the problem is postural, then you need to work on posture correcting exercises and bring weak muscles up to par

and if the problem is that you are seeing fat where there is none, then you need to talk to a counselor and learn to love and accept yourself.

Either way i would suggest adding cals to the diet, working on getting more protein (because you are going to need about twice as much as you eat now), you need healthy fats in your diet as well. Get on a solid resistance program, and take an honest look at your mental and emotional state and seek counseling.

 

[abcollins1]

Losing fat comes down to diet and that can be tricky, If you have been at 1000 – 1200 cals for a long time, then its time for a dieting break! That means you need to bring your cals up slowly (also called reverse dieting) until you hit maintenance. Your body quickly adapts to lowered cals and eventually you do need to take a break, allow your hormones to reset (not estrogen but all the others) and then slowly lower cals.

It also looks like you arre not getting enough protein, and i see no healthy fats in there either.

On another note, cardio does not by itself make you lose fat so adding in a ton of cardio on too little cals is not a good idea.

If you carry the most fat on your stomach, then it will be the last place you lose it, nothing you can do about that.

You also may be under-muscled (which happens a lot with people who do low cal dieting for a long time) so you may want to look at a good weight lifting program to add to pole and bring up over all musculature. You are not gaining muscle on 1000 cals (the body just doesnt work that way) though you at best will be preserving what muscle you do have by working out.

[abcollins1]

When i have experienced this, it has been due to dietary fats being too low. You may want to keep an eye on how much good fat you are eating (olive oil, nut butters, nuts, etc).

Dietary fat  has a lot to do with controling and regulating hormone production as well certain vitamin absorbtions which can lead to many many symptoms. May or may not bethe issue, but its worth keeping an eye on it.