Woman Sues Crunch Fitness For Pole Dancing Injury
verticaltherapy started this discussion ·
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34743864/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/
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verticaltherapy started this discussion ·
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34743864/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/
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Wow. This is why studios have you sign a waiver before you take classes. Pole at your own risk!
Trena ·
I know the instructor should have been supervising her but if she knew she couldnt invert then why did she?
this makes me so mad ! certainly there should be a spotter around if people are inverting, but trena, you are right -- that girl knew she wasn't strong enough, so why did she invert in the first place ???? this is how rates for insurance, classes, gym memberships, etc go up !! people who have no business engaging in a particular sport or activity go and do it, get hurt, and then sue. grrrrrrrrrrrrr 👎
echoing the above posters...i completely agree. why would you try something you know you are not strong enough to do? even with a spotter, i probably wouldn't attempt it until i am at least strongly confident i cant execute it without busting my head open 😳
Rubi ·
I don't want to jump to conclusions without more information, but it's possible she didn't know how to tell whether or not she is ready to invert (especially if she doesn't get on pole forums with stickies about how to tell when you're ready), and in fact her instructor may have assured her she was plenty strong enough. To people like us on StudioVeena, it is easy for us to forget that it may not be easy to tell if you're strong enough or not. If her instructor advised her that she may not be ready, then it's a whole different story, though....
Charley ·
Can I just say this is why we don't teach inverting to those who are new to pole dancing. I don't care if you work out everyday - pole is a different technique that if not done properly can seriously injure you. Secondly to fall means she was able to get up there - so the student managed the invert - it sounds like sweaty palms got the best of her and she slipped. Which means even with a spotter she still would have fallen as a spotter breaks the fall not elimnates it. Third - I am not super familiar with Crunch outside of them being a chain that actually offers pole class...but what are the qualifications at crunch to teach pole? Just group cert? Personal training certs? What about pole experience? Is this something that they look for in pole instructors?
This is why studios have you sign a waiver before you take classes. Just a point for those who have studios/are thinking of opening one up. Waivers will almost never hold up if someone sues you for negligence...
Stacia ·
Wow. This is why studios have you sign a waiver before you take classes. Pole at your own risk! I agree! You make the choice to try certain tricks based on what you think your ability is. Pole at your own risk!
Stacia ·
This is why studios have you sign a waiver before you take classes. Just a point for those who have studios/are thinking of opening one up. Waivers will almost never hold up if someone sues you for negligence... Why won't waivers hold up? Why even have them?
Wow!!!!!! 😢 and I so want a membership at a crunch gym...They got a superb line up of classes!
amy ·
i started taking class at sfactor, and have been there for a couple years. one thing that i will say about sfactor is that they have a VERY slow progression, and my teachers have ALWAYS suuuper stressed crunching into an invert and not kicking. so, i took it for granted. a couple months ago i bought a crunch membership because i am exploring other pole tricks that are not taught at sfactor. the first time i walked into a crunch class i was aghast. they are teaching women who are gym goers, and generally very strong, but they teach choppers to a mixed level class and don't warn beginners from trying the tricks, don't coach about which muscles to engage, and don't really give you very good step-by-step instruction in the mixed classes. then you combine that with a one-upsmanship kind of environment, where it is bright lights and mirros and honestly pretty competitive and catty at times, and you have an environment where women are recklessly trying things they really shouldnt be doing. i've taken advanced classes that are a little more closely monitored, and some teachers are better than others and are more responsible than ohters, but in my opinion, crunch is NOT a good place to go to really learn tricks the right way using the right techniques as a beginner. other friends from sfactor have tried crunch classes and been similarly shocked. one has been adamant that "someone is going to get really hurt there". and even more crazy-- i have an sfactor freind who went to sue ann wee for a dermatologist appointment last summer. my friend mentioned sfactor and pole classes to sue ann wee, who was very curious to learn more. sounds like sue ann went out, joined crunch right away, and literally injured herself within a month.
This is why studios have you sign a waiver before you take classes. Just a point for those who have studios/are thinking of opening one up. Waivers will almost never hold up if someone sues you for negligence... Why won't waivers hold up? Why even have them? Most waivers are unenfforcable. Or rather a waiver does not actually allow a company to take away a persons right to sue. A contract giving away your right to legal protection is unenforcable.
amcut ·
She actually said she wasn't strong enough.. then did it anyways without a spotter. Nice. It's worse than hot coffee at mcdonalds. It's like, she looked at the coffee, felt it, decided it was too hot, told people it was too hot, then poured it all over herself.
I have been reading bad reviews of crunch on epinions.com or something...anywho as a beginner I wouldn't try to do advance moves period. I know what I can and cant do and will not allow myself to freely participate. I know when to bow out, so I wouldn't necessarily sue crunch if I got hurt. If people would read some of these waivers and release forms these gyms have you sign, you are also responsible for knowing your own level and when things aren't right for you. definitely in a mixed level class. Some people just need to take responsibility for their own safety and not just leave it in others hands. But then again thats me...
She actually said she wasn't strong enough.. then did it anyways without a spotter. Nice. It's worse than hot coffee at mcdonalds. It's like, she looked at the coffee, felt it, decided it was too hot, told people it was too hot, then poured it all over herself. Exactly what I am thinking. Like seriously people need to know their own limits. Im not going to be doing some crazy spin, flip action down to a split on the first day I pole...wth!!! 🤔
i started taking class at sfactor, and have been there for a couple years. one thing that i will say about sfactor is that they have a VERY slow progression, and my teachers have ALWAYS suuuper stressed crunching into an invert and not kicking. so, i took it for granted. a couple months ago i bought a crunch membership because i am exploring other pole tricks that are not taught at sfactor. the first time i walked into a crunch class i was aghast. they are teaching women who are gym goers, and generally very strong, but they teach choppers to a mixed level class and don't warn beginners from trying the tricks, don't coach about which muscles to engage, and don't really give you very good step-by-step instruction in the mixed classes. then you combine that with a one-upsmanship kind of environment, where it is bright lights and mirros and honestly pretty competitive and catty at times, and you have an environment where women are recklessly trying things they really shouldnt be doing. i've taken advanced classes that are a little more closely monitored, and some teachers are better than others and are more responsible than ohters, but in my opinion, crunch is NOT a good place to go to really learn tricks the right way using the right techniques as a beginner. other friends from sfactor have tried crunch classes and been similarly shocked. one has been adamant that "someone is going to get really hurt there". and even more crazy-- i have an sfactor freind who went to sue ann wee for a dermatologist appointment last summer. my friend mentioned sfactor and pole classes to sue ann wee, who was very curious to learn more. sounds like sue ann went out, joined crunch right away, and literally injured herself within a month. The Crunch classes in LA seem much more controlled than the NYC classes but still not nearly as supervised as S Factor...for that matter I have been to multiple pole studios in LA and the ONLY classes where I felt there was enough spotting going on was S Factor and X-Polesitions all the rest were much less hands on.
amcut ·
Whoa Amy! I feel bad now that Sue Ann Wee has less degrees of separation from me! I guess if Crunch sucks the balls that badly at monitoring, they -should- be sued. They're probably large enough to fend her off from a large monetary amount, but they may take better care in the future. Alright, Sue. You may have been silly, and should probably stick to skin disorders.. but you do have a point. 😉
freakiel ·
http://spotlight.vitals.com/2010/01/dr-sue-ann-wee-suing-crunch-fitness-for-attention-neglect-to-injury/ pay attention to this part: Dr. Sue Ann Wee was taking a pole-dancing class during the summer, when she hurt herself and was stunned to find the instructor continue on with the class, paying no special attention to the injured student.
There are soooooo many places in my area in the UK that are teaching pole and really shouldn't be. Because there are no compulsory qualifications to teach, I think there are varying standards. I have been to several studios and they all do it differently. Some of them don't specifically teach - they just ask you what you want to work on or give you a move (for beginners) and just leave you to practice. The first studio I went to went really slowly - I think it was probably 15 - 18 weeks before they started to show us the inverted crucifix which I found good (looking back) as we built up our strength before we tried new things. It was a little frustrating at the time, but we looked at others in the more advanced classes and were awed by what they were doing. Now I am more advanced, however, I have gone back to the same studio on several occasions and have got to the point where I am able to do moves they can't and also where I am watching them teach moves to students which they are unable to do themselves - now how you can teach something when you don't know how to do it is beyond me! This same studio has also changed their teaching practices since I started with them a year ago. Because they have mixed classes, I see what they are teaching the beginners. I went to one 6 week course and they were getting them to try and invert from the second week! Now what's that all about?? There are students there that still have incorrect technique (like running into an invert vertually to get up, rather than lifting yourself) and the tutors do not correct them - after a year of being taught, this shouldn't be happening IMO I have also seen somebody injure themselves at another class - she had been told to do kick ups in a shoulder mount position but not to go into the full shoulder mount as the instructor didn't think she was ready - however she tried it and slid down the pole onto her head. Nothing came of it, but the look of panic on the instructors face when she thought someone had been injured was priceless! There are many differing standards of teaching. I have now reached a level where I am struggling to find people who can take me to the next stage. The teachers I know now are either not at a high enough level or are polers who are brilliant, but don't have the communication techniques to be able to break a move down and teach it properly which could result in me being injured - just because you know how to do something yourself, doesn't mean you can teach it to someone else. I think there should be more regulations around this now as it is becoming more popular and it shouldn't be the case that anybody can set up and teach. RANT OVER! 🥂
Now I am more advanced, however, I have gone back to the same studio on several occasions and have got to the point where I am able to do moves they can't and also where I am watching them teach moves to students which they are unable to do themselves - now how you can teach something when you don't know how to do it is beyond me! I am not an instructor but I have the ability to observe a move, break it down and teach it to someone else even if I cannot execute the move myself. There are a lot of moves I cannot do due to range of motion and flexibility. More on topic, I am sure that more and more of these lawsuits are going to pop up and in a way I see it as a good thing. There are so many people out there teaching pole that have no right to be teaching. This has been a topic of discussion on pretty much every pole board that I am on. Only through things like lawsuits will owners finally stand up and take notice and then require higher standards for their instructors.
I am not an instructor but I have the ability to observe a move, break it down and teach it to someone else even if I cannot execute the move myself. There are a lot of moves I cannot do due to range of motion and flexibility. Would you have already tried that move to realise you can't execute it? I'm talking about instructors who may have seen a picture of a move, but have never seen it done or never attempted to do it. Take, for example the RG into Pretzel - the instructor did not know what that was - I know it's an advanced spin, but surely you would know that one..... Maybe I'm giving them too much of a hard time but I like people to know what they are doing before they try to teach it to me 😀
While I mostly agree with the whole "WTF was she inverting when she knew she wasn't strong enough" train of thought, I would like to add that for me, it's impossible to monitor every single student in a class where there's more than 5 (more or less--I know more experienced instructors can manage lots). I have made speeches about "please do not attempt new tricks unless I'm RIGHT THERE SPOTTING YOU", and inevitably, some girl will fly up there and try something anyway. Usually it's a young girl, but sometimes not. Perhaps she did the invert, slid down, and the teacher didn't understand the extent of her injury? Maybe the teacher even asked if she was ok, and her immediate response was "yes" (I know it sounds prejudiced, but as a Chinese woman, you kind of get brainwashed into giving the response you know someone wants to hear), but then started feeling the pain later? I'm curious to know if an ambulance was called or did she walk out on her own. Nowadays, there seem to be a lot more open/mixed level classes rather than beginner/intermediate/advanced ones. There's always going to be injuries. And yes, even though a student may be required to sign a waiver, she can still sue--they're not binding contracts. I think it's more for the student to realise that what she is about to do CAN lead to injuries (same as yoga or martial arts, etc). Having said all that, maybe this news was a good (barring the injured woman, of course) thing; maybe now people can see that poling is some serious work!
Charley ·
YBB - you bring up some good points. Did the woman invert after being told to wait for a spotter? Because I have a girl who does this a lot - she knows to wait or practice from the floor but on a regular basis has inverted while I was helping to spot another student. I also emphasis crunching into an invert but students do not always listen. Did the student just say she was ok out of embarassment? Was the fall really a fall? Or a slow slide to the ground? Did she receive medical attention right away? I am not saying its the students fault and that she doesn't have a right to sue because chances are the instructor just told her to invert and she did and slipped. A lot of places teach inverts in beginner classes because they think inverting is about strength (only partly correct.) I'd still like to know how long the instructor has been pole dancing.
I've seen many articles about this and most of them seem to only quote the attorney's version of the story which I'm certain is going to put a more ominous "spin" on the story. It could be completely accurate but it may not be. Why automatically take the attorney's version of the story? (I don't know this woman and I"m not saying she is making things up...I'm just saying it's her attorney's story being quoted here) The other thing that aggravates me is all the press this short story is getting when we can have pole competitions and not nearly half the coverage as this has gotten! 😈 A waiver only shows a sense of responsibility and informed consent. The student cannot say they didn't know there were any risks involved, etc. Here in the US a waiver won't prevent a lawsuit but it will HELP you prove a sense of responsibility. It doesn't absolve someone from being negligent. You're still expected to be responsible. It's just like in medicine...you sign a waiver for every procedure or surgery but if someone can prove neglect it doesn't matter what they signed because it's still presumed you know what you're doing as a professional. The truth is, even though everyone realizes accidents happen, you can still be sued for an "accident" in the US.
on the point of teaching things you can't do....in many cases yes. Coaches teach athletes and gymnasts things all the time that they cannot and never have done. And aren't many of us self-taught? If we can teach ourselves moves we've never done, why not teach others moves we've not done. It really depends on what you are teaching and your own skills. Just as some great dancers cannot teach well some great teachers cannot dance well. You have to be really good at understanding the mechanics of a move, breaking it down into an explanation that someone else can follow.
