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Who here saw this article: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323971204578630070114556206.html What are your thoughts and opinions? Was it presented properly? Should we be emphasizing the desexualization of pole dance? Is it fair to characterize "other competitions" as "ruling more loosely"? We would love everyone's thoughts on this!!!!
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The comment about "separating the boys from the men" really rubbed me the wrong way. Adding sensuality to a performance does not detract from the pure athletic ability of the performer. For example, Alethea Austin could kick anyone's butt in both strength and flexibility (which is what I assume the S and F stand for in the new, sterile nomenclature) but she would lose points left and right for being her sexy self. Pardon me, but what the fuck. Hate this. Perhaps its a niche for some people but I hope it never becomes the standard. VIVE LEs HAIR FLIPS! 💪
There was an interesting article published on Slate around the time of the 2012 Olympics. It discussed the changing focus of gymnastics, to scoring purely on technical merit as opposed to considering dance ability and musicality. It led to some dramatic differences between modern day gymnastics and older routines, which were historically dominated by the ballet-focused Soviets. It was an interesting read, and I feel like the same thing might happen to pole if this trend continues. http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/fivering_circus/2012/07/_2012_olympics_gymnastics_female_gymnasts_used_to_be_fantastic_dancers_how_did_the_floor_exercise_get_so_graceless_.html
Slate MagazineFemale Gymnasts Used To Be Fantastic Dancers. How Did the Floor Exercise Get So Graceless?Gymnastics fans, like politicians campaigning in the heartland, like to look to the past as a better, purer time. Instead of pointing to two-parent...I think they were exactly right by saying that BMX and mountain biking use the same apparatus, but are completely different. If they want to call what they are doing "Pole Sport," that's fine because it is completely different from "Pole Dancing." I don't like that they are trying to change what pole dancing is. Yes it's sexy and provocative and stemmed from strip clubs, but it also showcases a person's agility, stamina and grace. If they want to wear unitards and do an "F10," so be it. I'll be over here showing off my clavicular notch while gluteal dancing in my sexy outfit!
When I saw this article I went kinda ballistic. Like a few months back when K. T. suggested that men wear vests in competition. I posted this article on my Facebook page and really nailed it. Dance is about expressing yourself and saying things in movement that you cannot say in words. Ice hockey is scoring the most goals in sixty minutes. Dance is not a sport. You do not judge art. When I dance I dance because I feel. When I play my sport it's because I want to win. There are rules in ice hockey. There are no rules in pole dance. Well maybe one. Gravity. We defy it for as long as we can. :) Two other things. The picture of Liz was playing to the side of pole that K. T. wants to clean up. There were at least twenty pole moves that could have expressed the strength and beauty of pole work. Finally if your read the comments you can see that not too many people were impress with the new, improved, sanitized, pole approach. The stigma is alive and well. I'm a dancer and even as a guy I want to be sexy and attractive when I dance. I don't watch the commercialized Olympics anyway. It's a business.
Should we be emphasizing the desexualization? In my opinion, no. But it's tough. As Bob said, the stigma is still alive and well as evidenced by many people's responses to the article. I get frustrated every time I try to discuss pole and all people can talk about is that one time they went to a strip club, or that time they saw a girl fall on her head on Youtube. They don't want to actually hear about discovering a new artistic outlet at an older age, or finding a new reason to care about fitness and health. It's just an opening for a joke. That said, the movement to desexualize pole seems to be focusing on the second part of that problem, but not so much the first. I often revert to the usual arguments when I defend pole. "It's not at all what you think, it's not just sex, it's dance, it's sport, it's fitness, etc." I don't even necessarily agree deep in my heart - I like the sex appeal, I think pole can and should be sexy if that's what you like about it (and if you don't, fine! Dance however you like, it's all about you). But I feel like I "have" to say these things as a member of the community speaking on behalf of many, as opposed to speaking for myself. I think the first question should be: if pole is a sport, why is there dance in it at all? Why is there music or a set routine? If all you need to do is execute the moves with perfect form, it might as well just be that - standing in front of a judge who is evaluating your skills. How do they judge mallakhamb, anyway? Dance is dance and sport is sport, and the sports that blend the two (figure skating, gymnastics, cheerleading, etc) have many of the same problems as pole does. Whether "artistic" pole should be sexy is an entirely separate discussion. I think the obvious answer is "art is not uniform, so it's entirely up to the artist." I do find it frustrating that the best way that some people have come up with to address the stigma of pole dance in society is to focus on making it sterile. But I suppose it's a lot harder to try to convince people that healthy sexual expression by consenting adults will not cause society to collapse.
Let me start this off by saying that I fully understand why KT is going in this angle. She is the one pushing to get Pole into the Olympics and I am sure that she has set in meetings that have pushed the exact agenda she speaks of in this article. BUT, the fact that I understand it does not mean that I agree with it. The thing that bothered me I think the most was the naming. Ice skating has not changed the name of camel spin because it sounds sexual; hell they have not changed ANY of the names of their moves. Same with gymnastics and probably every other freaking sport that it out there. Out of every single thing, this is the part that pisses me off the most. We have enough issues with five names of the exact same move, now you are going to call it FM10 and so forth?? That is just absolutely ridiculous. There is always going to be the for and against this approach. This is the same reasoning that I care not for the 10 year old girl who competed. Is she talented? Yes, she is amazing. However that is not dance to me. That is not pole to me. That evokes no emotion whatsoever for me. Jut like I can watch gymnastics and appreciate the skill that it takes, I can also state that I have never been moved to tears watching a gymnastics routine. I prefer to be moved by a performance. How many of us go to gymnastics/cheerleading/dance recitals/competitions for pleasure? Probably not a single one of us. However I can pretty much guarantee all of us have seen Cirque or the ballet. KT is trying for the former, the majority of us are trying for the latter.
I feel like if 'pole sports' is to have some credibility to it then there needs to be rules. 'Pole Sports' are different from 'Pole Dancing'. Strictly regarding the Olympics, there is a time and place for everything. The Olympics is not the place to show overt sex appeal. Not necessarily every pole event wants sexy dancing while there are other pole events that only want sexy dancing. It is up to the organizer of the event to make the rules to gear it to a specific audience. If you don't like it nobody is putting a gun to your head telling you that you that overt sexuality is prohibited. If you don't like it choose a different event or create your own event. If you want to have FUN go to pole class and seek out showcases that are of similar taste to how you wish to perform. When you get up to professional competition level its not about FUN. It's about an agenda. You are trying to make some kind of professional advancement. Not saying that competitions aren't fun too because they are, but you are knowingly and willingly entering specifically to be judged by a certain criteria.
Well said, Chem. I've 'known' of KT Coates ever since I delved into the world of pole, a good many moons ago, but I've never paid much attention honestly. According to PDC, "KT was an innovator of pole fitness taking away its exotic image and presenting it in a fitness and gymnastic format." I didn't get into pole for that. I don't pole like that. I like the article quote: "...my heart beats for the glamour."
i have been poling for over 6 years, almost 7 now...i am not as good as people who have been doing it way less time, but there is no doubt i have love for "poling"...the area that comes naturally is floorwork, fluidity and sensuality....i also have small children and a teenage sdaughter, to whom i have taught many holds, spins, climbs, turns and i have no problem teaching them "pole sport". i will NOT teach them what the consensus terms "pole dancing". or, at least not until there 18 or over and have their own sensuality to interpret. to me the term "pole sport" can encompass ALOT of dance, fluidity, beauty, and strength, and be palatable to a family audience. the "pole dancing" that many of us enjoy would be an uncomfortable watch for a family with children. this is a wonderful, healthful activity that has it's most identifiable roots in sex steeped ground (never mind that chinese pole could buy beer before strip pole dance was even born google "Mallakhambha") if it's gonna be an organized event that people will watch and recognize as something that doesn't HAVE to be sensual or sexual, it has to be standardized for scoring and integrity. if you think that's too bland never compete in their competitions yep, it's annoying that the people that will make poling a giggle free activity appear to be devoid of the passion that many of us associate with the art. it's doubly annoying that the people that we have been googling for years, that may have gotten their start as exotic dancers, will probably never have the notoriety or endorsement loot that the technically pitch perfect people will have hailed at there feet once corporate america sees the financial windfall to be had from polers. but, although it can pay more bills, notoriety isn't everything. and here is a beautiful thing: i would bet my pole that the people we google and revere, i.e. alethea, veena, karol, jenyne could do a pitch perfect technical performance, emote it, have it move us, and NEVER have to sensual or sexualize one pinky. but could the gymnasts, athletes and so forth that are doing perfect F10s move us to beauty, or make us want to be sexy? hmmm... it ain't the end result we're hoping for, but dammit people it's a start. my friends have heard me talk about it for years and still get a look when i tell them what a pretty chair spin my 4yo daughter can do, or how strong my 5yo son is in his inversion. i wouldn't want to flight in orville and wilbur's first plane, but i'm damn sure glad they built it when i need to fly somewhere today. 🌸
*fly...silly fingers.
luvlee ·
I really have been trying to figure out how to put this all day. What it all comes down to is, how you want to pole is still your choice!!!! But if you want to participate in certain championships, they have their own set of rules to follow. This doesn't mean you can not support pole dance. It means you like to compete and challenge yourself and you like variety.
I also fear that this will stigmatize those of us who choose to dance sensually further. Now that there will be an outlet for the only-athletic aspect, people will say, "oh, and you still grind on that pole? You choose to dance like a stripper? Whore." Have you read the comments on that article? This seems like a greater threat than help to pole dancing as we know it, I think. Not to be dramatic, or anything.
Kobajo84 ·
I don't see this as a bad thing at all. I think pole embodies so much versatility that this new form of pole is just another addition to the already unique forms portrayed through the artistic existence. I think the community of pole needs to embrace all forms just as we embrace all forms, shapes, sizes, ages, and genders of dancers. Everyone is unique and it's time we realize pole dancing can be just as unique for every individual.
Leeloo ·
I just dislike the fact some people say "pole dancing"=sensual/sexy movement. Dancing as such can be lyrical, energetic, dramatic, slow, fast, flowing, elegant, fierce, explosive, story-telling, etc. Just because it is "dancing" and not "sports" in this phrase, it doesn't mean it HAS to be sexy. Therefore, I do not get the opposition "dancing" vs. "sports" as an opposition of sexy vs. devoid of sexy. I take this opposition as sports vs. more artistic freedom. From several threads here I get the impression that practitioners of sexy pole dancing style are feeling somewhat endangered and isolated. On the other hand, I am grateful that I have the option of not going to "sexy" classes, now that other style exists, because the sexy style is not the style I want to do. This is partly because I think dancing in a sexy manner is something that comes from every person individually, and partly because I want to do different sorts of movement on the pole. If only sexy pole was offered, I'd probably feel completely caged, and I probably would not even try or pursue pole. I believe sexy polers still have more options when it comes to taking classes in that style. Pole has evolved. For me the problem with sports is not that it misses sexy, it mostly misses the artistic spark. But as someone pointed out here or on a similar thread, these factors make the judging more subjective. I think the ideal way is to organize competitions like some of the Russian ones are organized, there they have several divisions, such as: acrobatic, artistic, exotic, etc. This way, everyone competes in their own niche, judged by appropriate criteria. Pole sport is a different story, which should exist. And I don't see that pole sport getting stronger will in any way discriminate the sexy style polers.I believe the vast majority of polers are still practitioners of this style.
Here's an interesting link I recently saw about the recent evolution of modern gymnastics. http://mobile.slate.com/articles/sports/fivering_circus/2012/07/_2012_olympics_gymnastics_female_gymnasts_used_to_be_fantastic_dancers_how_did_the_floor_exercise_get_so_graceless_.single.html It's kind of a parallel, as I think many people look to gymnastics as a predictor of how pole will evolve on the global competition stage. If if big moves and clean technique are what score points, why would anyone expect the athletes (who train prodigious amounts of time and sacrifice so much of their daily lives) to spend time on looking artistic? There's no real pay back to do so. I agree that artistry just cannot be judged objectively, with just a number assigned to it. Which is exactly why some competitions essentially just remove that factor. It makes sense. To me; however, dance will always be just that... art. It's not like basketball, where the whole point of the game is to score points. Dance just seems much more evocative, emotional, etc. in its history and evolution. It's social, spiritual, emotional, etc. etc. It's not that I don't think people should compete in comps designed to be purely technique based. It's just that it doesn't appeal to me in any way.
Corby is that the mobile version of the article I read? :)
Haha! Its totally the same! Whoops! Somehow I missed that!
I think dance is dance and sport is sport. Why can't both be together? Everyones brain is different and everyone sees things differently than the next. I agree you can't really judge dance ( technical aspects i suppose) because its an art form and people take what they want from a performance and it's in the eye of the beholder. I personally like the sexual side. It's no different than any other form of dance, they all cater to love and sensuality. When i try to explain pole to people that view it as a strip club mentality i first say " pole dancing has been around for around 2000 years, chinese pole!" "it wasnt until the 80's i believe when it hit the strip clubs in canada" " It's like aerial ballet or gymnastics" What would any form of dance be without expression and sensuality? not very interesting i suppose.... I wish people were more open minded of things in this world but to many are scared of what they don't know. It's up to us pole dancers to change the mindset of the masses. Once people can see it for what it truly is, an inspiring feat of fitness and grace that takes perserverance and strength whether or not it's "sexy" then the world will forget about the exotic dance mentality around it and move on to something else to put down. I watch dance shows and Americas got talent and people vote for the little kids dancing all provacatively swaying there hips, booty popping etc..I guess thats ok and cute but god forbid you put a pole into dancing...just saying... When I mention the aerial ballet, most say " I never thought of it that way" lol
Leeloo ·
I agree, sexy, or rather in this case, vulgar, is allowed too much in "regular" dance in all age categories and even though it is in the rules of many of those competitions, nobody puts restriction on this, which I find appalling and hypocrite. Many latin dances are innately sexual and nobody has a problem with that. I have no problem with pole involving sensual movement, I have a problem with people saying that sexy pole is the original pole and that we should all "go back to our roots". Btw, great article on evolution in gymnastics. Sadly, this is the case even with rhythmic gymnastics, which, by definition, should be done to music and follow it accordingly. But even today there are some exceptions to the uniformity http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37YEpf_xhbk London was pretty uniform, but nobody can deny that there were some outstanding performances that were great and even artistic, despite all the rules and limitations.
Leeloo ·
When I say London, I mean IPSF World Pole Sports Championship :D
I wanted to respond a little bit to this statement upthread:If you want to have FUN go to pole class and seek out showcases that are of similar taste to how you wish to perform. When you get up to professional competition level its not about FUN. It's about an agenda. You are trying to make some kind of professional advancement. I understand this point of view but I don't really agree with it. I feel like making a distinction between "fun" showcases & "serious" competition essentially trivialises the difference that some people are seeking to make here. Because competition is about an agenda of advancement it is important to keep an eye on the statement that it seeks to make. I don't agree with the direction of sexless tricking that the sport may take. Call it something else altogether ( I'm fine with pole sport) and separate it from the edginess of pole dance, whether that's competition, performance or personal evolution. If Miss Pole Dance Australia can produce incredible athletes who are sexy, flexy, badass performers in tiny pieces of clothing, high heels and who use theatrics and props, then surely there can be more competitions that encourage that.
Leeloo ·
Ironically, I sometimes regret the fact pole dancing requires very little clothes because it limits your choice of character. Of course, costume is not everything that makes the character, but it is hard imagining poling in a a more elaborate non-skimpy costume unless you are a guy with a lot of upper body strength that doesn't have too much leg gripping in the routine (or does more of a chinese pole style) or unless you take the "extra" clothes off during the routine. Yes, having skin exposed is essential for pole dancing, but as i said, your choice of costume is limited.
luvlee ·
There ARE competitions that still have the sexy!!! Why does everyone keep saying there are not? One competition, not sure which one, required heels even! I like ALL pole styles, and there WILL be more styles. This should not threaten anyone. There is room for it all. I personally, get tired of the stripper stigma because I am personally not one. Perhaps more competitions in general would help the stigma, but even that will always remain a little.
There is another factor here that no one has touched on but has been brought up in other conversations, and that is sponsorship. These events are not cheap in any way to put on and requires lots of begging for money (I am calling it what it is). Many companies will donate product but it is hard to sell advertising to a company in a country that still for the most part sees pole as stripping. Even many venues have stipulations on the amount of skin that can show due to their city zoning ordinances. A venue that sells alcohol can very easily lose their liquor license and no one wants to ruin a business. Once the competition has a name usually the guard comes down a bit. And leeloo, with the pole sleeves that are starting to crop up minimal clothing is no longer needed, however things like spins are pretty much not an option, so it will definitely go more towards a Chinese style performance.
luvlee ·
Good point!^^^^^^
