Quick Question: Cross ankle vs Cross Knee

polereveur started this discussion · 1/22/2015

I recently learned the cross ankle release, I still have that fear when you have to let go and layback. Physically I know that thighs have the pole clasped tightly and that my foot will catch me and I can always rely on my hands as a last resort but mentally I have a hard time letting go, so I go one hand at a time which I thinks hinders me because when I let go with one I hesitate letting go of the other and then I start to spin slightly because my bodyweight has shifted on the pole. So my question is, is the cross knee release more easier due to having more skin contact on the pole? I haven't tried it because I haven't tried the releases at home only in the studio with the crash mat and my instructor nearby.

24 replies

Phoenix Hunter · 1/22/2015
I feel the cross knee is usually easier for most because you dont have to rely so much on strength as you do in the cross ankle release. that crossed knee kind of "locks" you into place easier than a cross ankle. its usually easier to get into the right position with the cross knee. with the the cross ankle you will have to use a lot more strength, squeezing the thighs and turning the knees in. you said something about your "foot will catch" you in a cross ankle release. I'm not really sure what you mean by that. your feet are far away from the pole in a cross ankle. maybe I am misunderstanding what you meant there. but there is a way to practice your cross ankle from the floor and Veena shows that in her lesson. I highly recommend trying that way until you get comfortable and you can even put some pillows or cushions underneath you when you try it. but yes Cross knee is usually easier than cross ankle. for me cross ankle is more painful so I dont do it often. good luck with your practice!!! these were both very scary for me to learn. starting from the floor helped.
AllysonKendal · 1/22/2015
basically ditto what Phoenix said! For me the CAR isn't something I do often... But is on my 2015 list of things I want to do.. "Do CAR without the fear of death in my eyes" I believe is my actual goal. I do want to be able to do it beautifully HOWEVER many advanced pokers say it's just not something they do often. I feel like Veena even said somewhere that she doesn't love it, which (correct me if I'm wrong) she teaches Janiero from CKR not CAR. So don't beat yourself up too much, it is a scary move!!! The CKR is easier because you have one leg locked in and it's acting as both the push and the pull. It feels very secure... But laying back can be scary even when you're secure!
AllysonKendal · 1/22/2015
Haha. I just watched a video of me doing a CAR bridge and it is slow and painful. :P
Lucca Valentine · 1/22/2015
CKR just feels so much safer and more secure to me that I rarely do CAR. Especially cuz if I can't do it with both feet pointed, then I'm kinda not gonna bother cuz to me it's not pretty with that one cock eyed foot. Moral of the story...CKR is definitely easier and even with that one I still get some fear in the eyes ;) Some polers practice CAR from really low to the floor at first (I think Pheonix Hunter trained it this way). That way they can get really good at the hold/grip before doing it up higher on the pole. That method def seems to make the most sense.
Lucca Valentine · 1/22/2015
Woops! Just saw your post Phoenix ;) sorry!
majikmyke · 1/24/2015
A very interesting discussion. I do both the CAR and CKR. The problems that Polereveur acknowledged in her post is a common one that we've all encountered. When I started doing a CAR and CKR layback I was uncomfortable with both. Once I got the CKR, my CAR followed quickly. The problem for me was not the leg position. It was doing the layback itself. I remember my instructor saying once you feel secure on the pole slowly go into the layback without hesitating. Polereveur's comments indicate those difficulties, and by holding the pole with her hand her balance is shifted and she begins spinning. Not a good time to go into the layback portion. I would recommend that you only do this hold in the studio with your instructor to spot you, and a mat, until you're fully comfortable with smoothly releasing the pole with your hands and unhesitatingly go into the layback portion. It's scary, and counter intuitive I know; but once you're seated securely with a good leg grip, release your hands from the pole and smoothly go into the layback portion and roll your head backwards and look down towards the floor. It takes a lot of ab control. By rolling the head back along with your body you are committed to the maneuver. But, once you do it I promise you, you will not shift on the pole. And, after you do it several times you'll fully understand what I mean by "smoothly going into the layback." Now, use your abs and slowly raise yourself back into the sitting position. Throw one arm out to the other students and wait for the cheers! You deserve it. For Phoenix Hunter, I've seen people do their CAR where they do have a foot that hooks the pole as Polereveur indicated. I do my CAR like you, my feet are away from the pole. I think there are more of us that do it this way than the hooked foot. But, it seems to work for those people and their CAR looks good. Ladies, thank you for allowing me to comment.
Phoenix Hunter · 1/24/2015
Ive seen people hook there foot to come up out of a brass monkey. is that the same thing you are talking about majikmyke?
Phoenix Hunter · 1/24/2015
what I'm thinking of is like Veena's lesson -reverse inverted thigh hold or Dangerous Brian. I guess I dont consider that to be a Cross ankle release because your ankles arent crossed. I see people use that to lift out of brass monkey.
PolarGirl · 1/24/2015
At my studio they teach two types of cross ankle release, and they call them regular CAR and CAR with ankles at pole. The regular car is just what you think: a thigh squeeze. The CAR at pole has the foot "hooked" with the other ankle crossed behind it and the pole between your knees. Many moves are easier to get into from the "at pole" version (like aerial iguana, certain bow and arrow variations, or any move where you reach behind yourself to grasp the pole with your hands - easier because your thighs are already out of the way) and it's so secure that they teach it before the CKR. Everyone has their preference. Some less than advanced polers prefer the regular CAR. My opinion is that everyone should practice all of them. Regular CAR does get less scary when you practice it regularly (and SQUEEEEEEZE like you're about to pee your pants!).
Adrestia · 1/24/2015
PolarGirl, my studio teaches that same cross ankle with the foot hook. My instructor has been working with me on it because I start leaning back then sorta... get stuck with my hands and trying to take one leg and hook it and BLAH. I feel like a fish out of water. I can do it most of the time... it just looks like ass. (OH! Just saw Phoenix Hunter's post about the reverse inverted thigh hold and that looks like the hook thing I'm talking about!) So when I wanted to do what we call a "waterfall" for my showcase my instructor was like "lets try this a different way" and taught me the basic cross ankle release. WOW SO MUCH EASIER FOR ME! It sometimes hurts my coccyx a bit but wow way easier than trying to hook my ankle. So now that I have that down I have to go back and learn the hook.......... oy oy oy. I just recently learned the cross knee release during one of my first spinny pole classes. It didn't seem much different in difficulty to me than the basic cross ankle other than trying to keep my lines looking nice. Polereveur I didn't feel like i had more skin on the pole with the cross knee honestly. I like having my sorta chunky thighs sticking together around the pole more I think actually than just one thigh and a calf. I did find it took me some time to just "let go" and lean back. Like you said, you're going to catch yourself. There are several safety mechanisms in place. What helped me was thinking less about leaning back or not falling or whatever but trying to think about being GRACEFUL. Haha when I focused more on the lovely opening flower I wanted to look like I guess I thought less about grabbing on for dear life. Hahaha maybe that doesn't help.
I polekat I · 1/25/2015
I love these moves they are among my favourite ever.. I learnt CKR before CAR I think the knee hold is defineptly easier and feels less scary when first learning them =] a good tip for both - when in your pole sit position put your legs high before starting to lean back, so either bring your knee up to the pole for CKR or pike your legs higher than your hips for CAR, then do the lean back. I find it gets my legs into the right position straight away and I feel more secure to sweep my arms over my head as I go down, rather than have to work my hands down the pole til I am lower =] does that make sense?? let me know if u want me to make a video =p another good drill is to practice raising yourself up from that position, so say from a handstand or elbow stand position against the pole you will grip the pole with inner thighs or knee, then try sit up from that position. I use this to get up from the floor a lot when I'm dancing =] Great for the abs!! and if you can bring yourself up you can let yourself down =]]
Shimmy · 1/25/2015
Lol I have been poling for nearly a year now and cannot do CKR but got CAR on my second lesson. Funny how things work for some and not for others. Still try CKR but doesn't feel secure enough for me to lay back.
majikmyke · 1/25/2015
Well Phoenix Hunter, by the time I got ready to answer your question there were numerous other posts that have already done that. I won't be redundant. I haven't done the CAR using the foot hold as I find it awkward to re-position my legs for it. Having done a headstand onto the pole, and securing my legs and using a foot hold, I find the lift from the headstand to the sitting position hurts my coccyx bone as apolemorphic indicated. I do it, but not often. PolarGirl's description is pretty much right-on for this hold. I polekat I, I'm sure I've seen some of your video's and you have a beautiful CAR - a really nice arch in your back. I like your technical description of the CAR as a dance performer. For Shimmy, you will find many "exceptions" in pole. It's one of the primary reasons pole instructor's encourage use students to always do, and try to do, a hold, trick, or maneuver from both sides. It is surprising to me the number of times I have found it easier to get into a hold from my non-dominant side rather than my dominant side. Go figure, right? It happens. Your ability to do the CAR release easier than the CKR is not unusual. I hope all the posts help you polereveur?
Phoenix Hunter · 1/25/2015
haha! I guess i just cant picture it in my mind what that looks like because I've never seen it. Shimmy- I prefer CAR to CKR too. I trust my own strength more than I trust that crossed knee. I feel like that knee could just slip out of place and its game over.
Veena · 1/25/2015
Both holds can almost always be interchanged when used as a transition so I always just tell dancers to use whichever feels most secure. There is no rule that says all pole dancers need to use both! I do both but have a natural tendency to use CKR, probably because I have nice open hips and the rotation of the hip needed for this hold is easy for me.
Veena · 1/25/2015
Also, sounds like some of you are learning the Reverse Inverted Thigh Hold, https://www.studioveena.com/lessons/view/4cd039db-6690-4548-b386-0f920ac37250 this is more difficult than gripping with both legs in CAR! I have it listed as Adv!! Please work on these moves from the ground first, it's safer and gives a good idea of if your legs will hold you. 💜
PolarGirl · 1/25/2015
Phoenix Hunter: the cross ankle release "at the pole" (dumb name, I know) is set up just like the Dangerous Brian, which Veena kindly just posted for visual reference...but it is NOT a thigh hold. Imagine the Dangerous Brian but with the "free" or back leg also brought to the pole so that you can cross that ankle behind the hooked leg and squeeze the pole between the meaty sweet spot inside both knees. It is super secure. For entry, you go from a pole sit with legs extended, basically a pike, like you're in a plank but sitting up with the torso vertical, with your hands below chest level and lean torso back so your legs come up a bit. From there I have seen two common methods of leg placement. One is to keep the legs crossed at the ankle and slightly bend the legs outward which creates an opening for the pole between your knees and then pulling your legs in toward your body until the ankles meet the pole and the pole is between your knees so you can grip it, then of course laying back. I simply cannot do this entry for some reason. Plus I don't like the knees bending, which loses the pretty line. The other method is the same in the beginning, but then instead of leaving legs crossed, you lean back with your hands still gripping right in front of you, uncross, and bring your hooking leg only to the pole and hook it. My other leg, which also gets to stay straight and pretty, then comes to the pole, finds the perfect knee placement on the side, and then the ankle meets the other ankle, crossing behind. This may require some finagling with your hand placement, but you'll find something that works for you with practice. At first, it can be challenging to find the sweet spot between the knees for many people, but the correct knee placement is more important than having the ankles crossed just right, because it's really the between-the-knee grip holding you. I find that when I find that perfect side knee squeeze grip spot on the second leg, it's tough to bring the second ankle to completely meet the first. It does, but if I'm focused on crossing harder at the ankles from the get-go, I end up with a nasty bruise from bad knee placement. Once you have mastered this one, you can do the one-legged variation (which is still not a Dangerous Brian). Everything is the same only the free/non-hooked leg, once brought to the pole and finding the good spot on the side of the knee and squeezing the pole between both knees, BENDS and points toward the floor. It looks much more impressive but really isn't much harder, as the ankle cross isn't doing much to hold you up. It just feels more secure. Like polekat said, using these to pull up from a headstand/elbow stand/handstand is the best and safest way to learn. As Veena said, the Dangerous Brian is definitely more advanced.
PrincessPeach · 1/25/2015
I really struggle with CKR I can't get into the position smoothly or hold it without pulling on my foot. I could sleep in my CAR though. My old instructor used to have a heart attack when I ised to drop back into it. I too used to advance plank like crazy, so maybe that's the best way to train it.
majikmyke · 1/25/2015
This has been a really great thread to offer input on. Thank you Veena for your posts.
Hazi411 · 1/26/2015
I learned CKR before CAR at both studio's I've been to. I prefer CAR - to me it feels safer. For some reason, I don't have a problem with anything that involves "falling backwards" into a move or a spin. Maybe I'm just weird ;-)
majikmyke · 1/26/2015
I agree with you Hazi411. I, too, feel more secure, and safer with the CAR. While I will do a CKR I always seem to come away more bruised than when I do a CAR. It took me a while to feel comfortable when falling backwards in these holds. You'll find everyone has different things that they're comfortable with, and other moves that they're not.
rsk269 · 1/27/2015
I find CAR incredibly hard to do, and could do a CKR on the first try. I have resorted to using the CAR hooked behind the pole hold everywhere, but I'm kind of stuck in my pole progress at the studio until I get the "regular CAR" down. :(
polereveur · 1/27/2015
I never thought this question would generate so many responses but i love all the feedback and will continue to try to embrace the CAR, i will try the CKR too
majikmyke · 1/27/2015
Do what makes you feel comfortable, polereveur! I agree with you that your original question generated a great deal of posts. It lets you know the difficulty, as well as the various opinions and approaches to doing holds and maneuvers. The "falling backward," or "release" is very hard for all of us. We really want to stay near the security of being close to the pole, not falling away from it! I think everyone on the SV site likes questions like this. We all learn by reading the posts of others as well as Veena's contributions. Please, let us know how you do, and when you accomplish the CAR, and possibly the CKR. Good poling, polereveur.