Pain and emotion poll - please vote!

Cinara started this discussion · 5/12/2012

Hi everyone! I've recently come to realise that some of my beliefs and perceptions about pain are not shared by everyone. Considering my PT seems to think most of my injuries are the result of overwork and not listening to my body well enough, I've been wondering if my calibration of what is normal is a little off. (There's other backstory here that I won't get into.) But there's also the possibility that my husband's beliefs are actually weird and mine are normal! So, I'm looking to see what other people think. I've created a 4 question multichoice survey. You can fill it out online, no need to login or register. Results are anonymous, and I'm only using them to satisfy my own curiosity. :-) Here's the link: http://www.bzoink.com/S174188 Thanks in advance to anyone who responds. Your answers could eventually help me sort out my physical and mental health*! If I can figure out which thoughts are common and which are distorted, I have somewhere to start. :-) * In case you're worried, I also have health professionals on the case, but if they say one thing and society says another, it's harder to listen to their advice.

20 replies

Elektra Vallens · 5/12/2012
I think this is an interesting survey. I had a few thoughts about things that might affect your data, though. For one thing, if you're looking for perceptions about pain rather than just experience of pain, the survey might be more accurate if you could control for some factors. For one, age is a factor; it just seems natural that as we get older, we get more aches and minor pains, and would therefore be more likely to report regular pain as normal. To a lesser degree, the same thing goes for a person's level of fitness: a person who is deeply out of shape may experience more pain doing everyday activities than someone who is in shape. On a different note, it is often difficult for any of us to tell when we are overworking a muscle until it is too late, so your perceptions about pain may not be the problem. I've had several overwork injuries, and I usually don't realize I'm doing it at the time. I don't know if that was the case with you, or if you kept pushing through pain. Pain is usually your body's way of telling you to stop what you are doing, but of course it's not always easy to tell the difference between soreness from excercise and pain from injury.
LillyBilly · 5/12/2012
I don't want to answer your poll because I think the answer to most of the questions is "it depends". Is it normal for adults to feel joint and muscle pain? Definitely not all of the time, only if excercise is involved. Joint pains are always a bad sign, in my opinoin. For me - joint pain is a sign that I did something wrong - that my alignment is off, that I put too much stress on my joints, that my equipment is not good etc. When I get joint pains I stop and evaluate my workout. Muscle pains are not born equal - some muscle pains result from the lactic acid that is created in your muscles during workout, and are perfectly normal. But there are kinds of pain that signal damage and distress (i.e - oversthreching, inflammation), and these should not be taken lightly! Outside of funerals, adult women should cry in front of others Adult people "shouldn't" cry. They can cry, if they feel the need, but there is no should there. What I think you should be asking yourself is, if you cry a lot, what is causing that. The cry itself is not bad, but if you find yourself needing it often - it is a sign of problem. I used to cry a lot when I was in a very bad relationship (some would say abusive). No one thought less of me because of that, but once I left that partner, well - I don't need to cry anymore. Are you currently experiencing pain (of any variety or severity) Not really. I ate something bad at lunch and I feel sick. Yesterday my hand hurt because I put too much stress on it during practice, and it is not strong enough. Today I gave it a rest and now it doesn't hurt. Next time I practive I will be more gentle with it, since I have hands problems and I need to work slowly on strengthening them. I am a bit worried that you will use your survey results in a way that will harm you. There is no one type of pain, and you should be aware of your body well enough to know the difference between them. An internet survey can't help you with that. And while I do think some pain is normal and necessary, note that in all my years working out (and I've been working out more than 13 years now, doing martial arts weights and pole) - I've never been injured. So if you are injured a lot, you may want to listen to your body more.
Elektra Vallens · 5/12/2012
@ LillyBilly - Good for you that you have never been injured in 13 years, but you must know that that is a statisical anomaly. Injuries not only happen because someone doesn't listen to their body, they also happen from accidents, which are so called for a reason. That you have gotten through 13 years without an accident is practically a miracle, so I wouldn't use it as proof that it's someone else's fault that they're injured.
LillyBilly · 5/12/2012
@Elektra - How many accidents are normal? 1? 2? 3? 15? 100? If you have too many accidents, you may not be careful enough. If I've been training on the pole for 3 months and then trying to do a handspring and hurt my wrist (which I've seen happen), you can call it an accident. I call it stupidity. If I train in martial arts with a partner I can't trust and he breaks my nose (which I've seen happen) you can call it accident, I call it stupidity. If you train so much your muscles can't hold you and then do an invert and fall on your head (which I've seen happen), you can call it an accident, I call it stupidity. Yes - sometimes you slip and there is nothing to do about it, but it shouldn't happen too many times. Now, I don't know what Cinara's situation is, but telling her that "all pain is normal" and that injuries are okay after she posts a post like that seem irresponsible to me. I was try trying to make the point that if she gets injured a lot, she better start questioning her methods, and arguing about the statistical significance of 0 vs. 3 injuries over years of training seems to me like it's irrelevant right now.
Elektra Vallens · 5/12/2012
I think if you read my first post, you would see that I both expressed concerns about the nature of the survey and said that pain is the body's way of telling you to stop, thereby discouraging Cinara from excercising through pain. If you're taking issue with the "all pain is normal" option on the survey, I'm not the one to take that up with, since I am not the author of the survey. As for the rest of your post, apparently all accidents are to you stupidity. If you haven't noticed, that's hardly the attitude around here- this website is about being supportive and helpful to each other, not unnecessarily nasty.
LillyBilly · 5/12/2012
Elektra, I wasn't replying to your post to begin with, I wrote my first message before I saw yours (it takes me a lot of time to write a post) and I am not taking anything up with you. I saw your reply to me as an attempt to reidicule the message I was trying to deliver that too many injuries are not ok by picking on my "uncommon statistics". Whatever. I don't know anyone who has sustained more than one injury or two in the past 5 years, and I know many people who practice "extreme sports". I don't think that all accidents are stupidity, don't put words in my mouth - I think some are. Sometimes the student is stupid, sometimes the teacher is. And as I said - yes, sometimes accidents happen, but only sometimes not all of the time. If you smashed your car 5 times, there's got to be something wrong with your driving, right? If you think the word stupid is nasty, I'm sory this is not what I meant - english is not my native language, I don't know any other word to describe it. How would you call ignoring warning signs, taking on tricks you are not ready for without preparation and ignoring what your teachers say about safety and control?
Webmaster · 5/12/2012
Can we please try and keep this civil? Cinara came to us with sincere concerns and looking for our help. Perhaps we could ask her some more questions about her situation? Thank-you so much for your understanding.
LillyBilly · 5/12/2012
@Webmaster @Cinara - I'm sorry, I think I have language problems here :)
Webmaster · 5/12/2012
@LillyBilly - That happens sometimes when you have people from all over the world. We have alot of foreign members. Just want to make sure that our conversation is constructive :)
azblanco · 5/12/2012
I did the survey, Cinara! Although the questions could be applied to multiple situations regarding 'is it normal to feel joint and muscle pain?'- I think that it is common to feel aches, just as long as its not inhibiting your daily life or duties... I feel stiffness in my hips ALL the time and I am only 22. Even after foam rolling and stretching (which does help ease the tension, but it is still always stiff) However, it is a slight pain and stiffness and I am able to live with it. On days that it is really bothering me I take Advil. I know its something that I can't really "fix" and its tolerable. Some days I don't even notice it... It is mostly when I start to think and dwell into it more and more that I will notice the pain/stiffness more intensly by worry and stress by thinking it is something worse than it actually is.. I know this is not the case with everything and some aches and pains can indicate something more serious like an injury or illness. I know I have not injured my hip. I know that I just have tightness in there and i know different ways to help relieve it- i know it is not a tumor or fracture or something like that. Just know your body and be able to distinguish what is normal for you or not. Try not to dwell into every ache and pain as it is something serious ( I am not saying you are or have. I am saying this because mental health and pain were mentioned in this post )... I have a friend who will run to the dr. over anything unusual and will think the worse.. Not judging anyone, so I hope this is not taken the wrong way. I just know that if she would not stress and harp on different things that happen, it would help her not be so anxious and think the worse over things... Don't know if my experience will help you... But sometimes if we can not stress and harp on things happening, we can manage things like this better. =)
RoseMay · 5/12/2012
Just today I read something interesting about the frequency of injuries and what is considered normal. The article was written by a PhD who works in medicine research. According to that article 4 injuries per 1000 hours of participation in a sport are considered a low injury rate. So if you do a sport 6 hours per week you could get those 1000 hours within maybe 3 years. So if you only get injured 4 times in those 3 years that's very good .. or the sport you do has a low risk of injury. What do you and your friends eat, LillyBilly? 😀 Cinara, I did the survey and hope you can figure your problems out :-)
LillyBilly · 5/13/2012
@RoseMay - Could be that we all get battered so well in basic army training, that by the time we are civilians again we are a lot more aware of our limitations and a lot less excited about overusing our bodies. Many of my said male friends have to work around old stress injuries from their army days. :\ I will say that bruises (blue marks), tight muscles, surface injuries and things like that are not what I consider injury. These are pretty much the normal wear and tear you get when working with your body. I am talking about serious things - broken bones and teeth, dislocated joints, torn tendons/muscles - things that require medical intervention. What kind of injuries is your article covering?
Cinara · 5/13/2012
Thank you so much for respondng everyone! As it turns out, the results of the survey so far agree with my husband, so he's quite smug now :) Now the responses have slowed down, I'll let you know why I was asking, and how I'll use the information, because I know people are worried, and I'm touched that you are! Without going into too much detail, these are the experiences and beliefs I always had growing up: 1. Everyone has aches and pains = everyone's joints always hurt, and to bring it up is weak, or attention seeking (Well, if I mention aches and pains it's for attention. If someone else complains about pain, it's because it's worse than mine). 2. I did not realise that children's pain could or should be treated. I always thought children's Tylenol (Panadol here in Aus) was for fever only. In fact, as a child I thought the reason adults could take Tylenol/ibuprofen etc (struggling with cross-cultural names here) and I couldn't was because children don't feel bad pain in the same way adults do. And adult headaches are way, way more hurtful than even broken bones are for children. 3. I never, ever saw an adult cry until the age of 15, and even then it was a music teacher who was a bit of a loose cannon anyway. So it only occurred to me the other day that maybe I'm not somehow defective for having had other people see me cry. At the moment, yes there are reasons I'm crying more than is healthy, and I'm working on that. I do tend to excuse myself quietly, or try to wait until I can get home to cry, but it doesn't always work out that way. 4. Hmm, this was a bit of a silly question, firstly because pole dancers are more likely to ache than the average person, and secondly there's no consideration to severity, and it's kind of like if you think about itching you'll be itchy. Still, I just wanted to get an idea of what exactly the oft repeated "everyone has aches and pains from time to time" (and my self-added addendum: "so shut up and stop being so weak about your pain") actually translates to. So what I take from your responses is: I have had some uncommon beliefs growing up, They may have caused me to ignore pain and push myself too hard. I'm probably way too hard on myself in general I have the right to seek treatment for injuries, even if they aren't severe enough to show up on xray. Just to add a bit more about my experience of injuries: From the age of 8, I have had at least one joint injury per year, including sprains, subluxations and stress fractures. I have probably spent more of my life injured than not injured. Almost all of these are from overuse. To be fair, I've done a lot of sport, but I still seem to get injured more than everyone else doing the same activity. My childhood PT, coaches, and actually everyone started to become skeptical that I was really hurt AGAIN after awhile. I figure the knowledge that the amount of aches and pains I have is above average helps me justify the expense of continuing clinical pilates (it's working woo!) and makes me feel less like a hypochondriac or an attention seeker. I will tend to avoid getting treatment for injuries because I'm afraid the doctor, PT, etc will tell me there's nothing wrong with me, and if there's nothing wrong with me I'm a hypochondriac and an attention seeker and a waster of medical resources. I have even avoided getting neck injuries or suspected broken toes checked out in the past, because I'm afraid I'm somehow imagining them or overreacting. I think the reason I'm prone to overuse injuries is partly some hypermobile joints and strange muscle inbalances, but I'm beginning to realise that maybe some of it is also not listening to my body. I've been under the impression that any pain I feel is actually not a big deal, and it would be weak to stop because of it, so I would push through to the point of doing damage. I don't know if my pain tolerance is too high, or if my expectation of how much pain I should put up with is the problem. Or maybe neither and I'm just injury prone? As for accidents: I almost never have them, and if I do, I almost never get injured. For me it's because 1) I've done enough acrobatic type sports to have gained a good sense of my abilities, 2) I'm naturally quite cautious, and 3) years of ju-jitsu as a kid taught me how to fall safely like without even thinking about it. But not everyone has the same background and for someone else it might not be as easy to not get injured. I would also say that in my opinion listening to your body is not a natural or automatic skill for everybody (hence my survey), but it's a skill everyone really should learn :) And that's what I'm trying to do now. Thanks again if you read my novel and/or took my survey :)
LillyBilly · 5/13/2012
@Cinara - I'm glad you posted this question :) I hope you will take good care of yourself, and don't be too hard on yourself - you deserve it. You sound like an incredibly strong and capable person, but there is also another kind of strength that comes from allowing yourself to be weak sometimes. It's ok to need a rest sometimes, to take your time, to be in pain and to need support. You deserve it as much as anybody else around you, and the people who love you (your husband, for example) want to be there for you. Let them. I will add two things about doctors telling you you don't have any problems - 1. Doctors don't know everything. In the past, doctors thought that menstrual pain (is this how you say it?) wasn't real. But I think that most of us know that oh yes, it is real. Our knowledge keep evolving. 2. The fact that doctors don't know how to deal with something, doesn't make it less of a problem, especially if it troubles you on a daily basis. I have a "syndrom" that doctors can't detect or solve, and I had to learn how to take care of myself better so that I can function normally. I also thought that my pain was imaginary for years, but after I learned how to help myself with it and started talking about my sickness and pain, I found out that a lot of people who had similar problems started coming to me for advice, support and help. By allowing myself to be "weak", I allowed them to admit their pain and became strong for others.
pegasusaerialfitness · 5/13/2012
Here is my two sense Cinara. Everyone has there own unique tolerance to pain depending on the situation. Their emotional state and physical state can play a factor in there perception of pain. I recently saw a show put on by UCSD about people and how they might percieve and react to pain. One situation a child is playng and having a blast, the other the child is grumpy and having to do a chore. If both of these kids " accidently fall down and skin a knee for ex. How would they react? They discovered that the child that was having fun would have a less severe response to pain then the grumpy child. Their mental state had an influence on their physical state and their perception of an injury. I've been a fitness instructor for a very long time and I try to teach my clients that the "funny feelings" are the ones to pay attention too. Once you have gone to a pain signal you have already injured yourself in a small or big way. Also, not everyone has the same tolerance for pain. I have an extremely high tolerance to pain, and I have realized that by the time I've noticed that something hurts in my opinion I am very injured. (EX...I broke two ribs and two weeks later I did a Pole Photo shoot with them, (I didnt know they were broken at that time) I went to three different doctors and told them my back felt weird..One of them insisted I go get an XRAY and ...there you go..two broken ribs. I think you can be unique and normal at the same time. If you grew up and were taught something and you are reconsidering whether you want to believe that is the right way for you then you should explore that more. It's great to get outside information, but you should choose what is right for you now. It is alright to discover that some beliefs may not be "right" for you and your well being and be who you are meant to be. I think we all have a time in our life when we can grow a little more and be "better" and make "better" choices than what we were taught as children. I found the survey too general to be able to anwers the questions as they were presented.
HotelChick · 5/13/2012
I read your novel :) and wanted to respond because it sounds like we grew up with a similar understanding of pain and tolerance. I'm so glad you're finding the Pilates helpful. I dealt with a rediculous amount of back pain for years before I discovered how strengthening and stretching my abs and back relieved my pain. Of course, I didn't need to suffer that pain in the first place. I fell down drunk at the age of 19 and fractured my tailbone. Of course, I didn't know I had fractured it until some time later because I never visited a doc or chiropractor. I lived with my pain. Pain, to me, was just a normal part of everyday life. It's "what you get" when you make bad choices. So, I've suffered broken ribs from a horse trampling me (my fault for riding her on the road before she was ready) and a few other breaks and countless sprains without seeing a doc because I grew up with a belief that you should "live and learn" from your mistakes and "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger." Now that I am older, and hopefully a bit wiser than my former self and the two very proud but impoverished parents who raised me (God bless them), I try very hard to care for this one body I was given. I have daily aches and pains that result from years of misuse, years of working on my feet, carrying more than I should just to prove that I could, years of bad choices that I now must "live with". But, alas, I have learned :) There is no shame in admitting and treating your pain my dear. You want to live in that gorgeous body for 80+ years. Take care of it and make good choices for you so those years can be joyful and rich with amazing experiences. I guarantee you, you will not regret caring for yourself when you have amazing memories of the places you've been and the experiences you've enjoyed because you were ABLE. As for the emotional pain, I've experienced plenty of that myself as well. For me, it's more debilitating than the physical pain. I've found it takes me more strength to admit and treat emotional pain than it does physical aches and pains, but it's equally important. I can't work on the physical if I haven't managed the emotional. Good luck to you. It sounds like you have a hubby who wants you well. Let him help you.
Angel1201 · 5/13/2012
Hi Cinara, There are two things you mentioned besides pain that caught my eye. Subluxations and hypermobility. Have you been checked for Ehlers-Danlos (hypermobility type)? Hypermobile joints, subluxations, and frequent pain are hallmarks of the syndrome. I have it but was not diagnosed until 40 because many doctors do not know about it. It took many many doctor visits to get to that diagnosis. I finally had to seek out a world expert at Johns Hopkins to be told that my pain was part of the syndrome and that my POTS, IBS, tendonitis, migraines, trigger points, fatigue, orthostatic intolerance, and varicose veins were all additional symptoms of the disorder. The source of the problem is irregular collagen which makes up your muscles, veins, cartilage etc. When your joints are hypermobile, your muscles have to work harder to keep the joints in their proper range of motion, so the go into spasm causing pain. I live with pain each and every day. I get so fatigued at times, I walk around like a zombie. The joint pain migrates from joint to joint. One month its my hip, the next my knee. Luckily my doctor understands that and recommends a lot of medications (that I avoid as much as possible). Sorry to ramble on, but if anyone out there reads this, it may help them if they are hypermobile struggle with pain. There is a simple test that can help lead to a diagnosis called the beighton scale. PS, I'm so very sorry that you hurt as a child and you weren't given help. That is totally unfair and I wish your complaints would have been treated with respect and care.
Cinara · 5/13/2012
Hi Angel, Funnily enough, I'm actually asking my Dr about Ehler-Danlos type III today! It's kind of hard to say. On the one hand, I have hypermobility in my ankles, knees, hips, elbows, and also my back and shoulders as a child, along with jount pain, injuries, very easy bruising and soft skin. Plus, these traits seem to run in my family in a way consistent with an autosomal dominant pattern. (My brother, my Mum, her Mum - who could perform contortion tricks as a kid without training!) But, on the other hand (quite literally!) my wrists and fingers have average to below average mobility, and while I've read you don't need hypermobility in every joint to meet diagnostic criteria, there seems to be a lot of focus on fingers and wrists in the beighton scale. Also, I don't have a lot of dysautonomic issues like orthostatic hypotension, but when I looked at it, I wondered if I had some milder dysautonomic symptoms, and maybe I don't notice like with pain? Also I do tend to get tired easily, and especially my muscles tend to fatigue quickly (I mostly notice in warm-ups), so who knows? I'm happy you finally had a diagnosis, and even if there's not a whole lot that can be done about EDS, at least you can know what's going on and get help to manage it. It's also cool to see your pic with a strong-looking jacknife - it gives me hope that maybe I'll still be doing that at 40, :) Thank you everyone else as well for your responses. It brought a tear to my eye last night. It's great to go to Veeners for help 🥂
Angel1201 · 5/15/2012
Memphis, Thank you for sharing your history with addiction. Your openness can only help others who may be suffering in silence! Cinara, I was shocked to learn I had POTS! The tachycardia didn't register with me consciously, even though it was happening every time I stood up. Weird! The test for it is simple, it's called a tilt-table test. I think when you experience something your whole life (pain, subluxations, lax joints, etc.) you just think it's normal! Keep us updated on your progress!
SpyralBound · 5/16/2012
I had somewhat the same upbringing, only with illness, not with pain. My parents didn't object to giving me Tylenol, TUMS (antacid, for heartburn/sick tummy) or nasty nasty Chloroseptic (spray for a sore throat - it's gross!) if I whined enough for it. But in general my family was not one to go running off to the doctor every time we came down with something. Bedrest, toast and hot tea were the go-to remedies in my home. (My parents are also very frugal so some of it might have been financially motivated.) I didn't even really notice this until I started dating. My boyfriend's family definitely liked their medicine and would get antibiotics, painkillers, etc. for almost everything. This struck me as odd, but then made me wonder if maybe MY family were the odd ones. I still have most of my parents' attitudes towards healthcare, but sometimes I do worry that by not being more medically responsive to my illnesses and pain, I might put myself in danger. There is some risk to my healthcare habits, which is why I really try to pay attention to what my body is telling me so I can separate "normal" (by my own standards, not by society's) from "serious." I'll echo what others have said - recognizing your pain and stopping to pay attention to it is NOT weakness. And if pain is getting in the way of your life, you absolutely have every right to seek treatment for it. You're doing what's right for yourself and your health; that matters much more than the possiblity of anyone seeing you as "weak." It's a pity there's so much shame around crying. I think women AND men should be able to cry in front of others without being judged for it - in a way, we have it lucky as women, that crying kinda comes with the territory and is more socially acceptable for us than for men.