No (former) strippers allowed in my studio competition :(
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Serzi ·
lol I was just waiting for someone to take that example and completely throw everything else I said out the window. Why I even bother posting anymore I'll never know. It truly is utterly pointless.
Veena ·
Hi Serzi, It's perfectly ok to express how you feel, but it's hard for everyone to know how serious you are just by reading text. If you type a response that sounds harsh you'll tend to get a harsh reply back.
Serzi ·
Things I say just do not come out the way I am trying to express. This issue with "the legitimization of pole" has hardened my heart beyond all words.
It's interesting because I was a gymnast and have trained in many other forms of dance (ballet, modern, jazz, tap, salsa, hip hop, and even a little burlesque) so if anything is going to give me an "edge" it's probably that. When I started going to pole classes my form was totally off, because I was self taught and a had learned moves to do them quickly and not necessarily safely. I fell from a layback at a club two years ago and still can't do them in class or practice even though most inversions don't freak me out at all. I think what I'll do is tell my main instructor and judge by her reaction how much of a thing I want it to be. If they still refuse to let me compete I'll decide from there what to do, but I'll probably just at least with be open with everybody about being a dancer. In the end it might make my time at the studio harder, but after talking with all of y'all I think it would be worse to keep hiding in silence. I guess worst case scenario I'll start a performing troupe with all the disaffected (ex)strippers, ha!
I'm not sure if this is connected, but I see a "trickle down" attitude here. (Please pardon me for the use of an overused political cliche). The anti-exotic movement thing is happening in the professional realm of pole dance competition, so it would make since the same attitude would flow downward into the studios. There have been many posts discussing the issue of exotic dancers being banned from top competitions. I completely agree that a business owner can choose to allow or disallow people to compete, however you're willing to accept a dancer's money for classes but not let them perform? The exotic dancer can share a pole with me but not a spot in a competitive lineup? I'm insulted. The person behind the rules is presuming I am not as good as an exotic dancer. When I compete- I want to compete against the best of the best. Don't block me from matching my skills, abilities, and strength against anyone simply based on where they work. If a competition is arranged by skill, that I can understand. At this point, I gladly admit my bell would be rung by many beautiful talented dancers. Why-- because they have more experience! Not because they work at a nightclub. Can someone explain to me why the individuals with competition decision making authority want to limit my competition? It only makes American pole dancing weaker.
Hi guys, I think excluding strippers is a discrimination. I don't think that it should be ok on one hand to allow professional dancers such as ex-ballerinas and ex-gymnasts while on the other hand one does not allow an exotic dancer. Exotic dancing is a job. Period. Actors take off their clothes for films and smooch in front of the camera whomever they are told to. Where is the difference? Because exotic dancers don't have a "good position" on the social ladder. People often look at women who do striptease for money as though they are worth less than the rest of us, which is wrong in my opinion. There would be no striptease if men wouldn't seek it. It is sad that it is the dancers who are being looked down at instead of the reason why there is exotic dancing. Also, with very little money, sometimes is the best way to earn something in order to get an education, if you are not in the lucky position to get money form parents for school. But back to the issue here: I think strippers should be allowed to compete. There are rules in the sense of what is ok to do in the competition and I don't think there would be a problem. If the business owner allows strippers or former strippers to take lessons, he or she should definitely allow them to compete as equal. Anything else is a discrimination. Also, however hard we try to separate exotic dancing and pole fitness, there will be always those who don't want to see the difference. No stripper-free competition is going to solve that. Only time can and sticking together can. I say, if (ex)ballerinas and (ex)gymnasts can compete, (ex)strippers should be allowed to compete too. After all, they are dancers too. I will open a studio next year and I can tell you one thing: no stripper would be banned form anything in my place. I have respect for the girls just as much as I have respect for any other job. Love you all guys, strippers included :)
Hah! Don't ask, don't tell, huh? I would bring it up after the competition that this is discrimination and even get a petition if necessary.
Aviva ·
I have debated with myself on weather I was going to weigh in on this and last time I read it about a week ago I let it go. But I see people talking about it being about discrimination and have to throw my perspective into it. I am a former stripper who taught pole for five years. The company I taught pole for holds an annual competition for their students for a title and prizes. This has always been billed as an amateur competition and if you get paid to be a stripper you are paid to be an entertainer therefore a professional therefore not eligible for the competition. I never really cared about it one way or the other because from day one I always spoke of my “night work” experience and because it was also in the employee rules of the company that we are not training people to get into the adult entertainment business. If they want to know about it, fine, feel free to tell them stories about last night at work, but do not encourage regular everyday women to get into “the business”. I never had a problem with that part and always thought that was darned reasonable. I also never felt discriminated against by my employers or the others in the environment. I was very well respected by my peers and students. The rules are there for a very specific reason and this unfortunate story happened to my friend and illustrates EXACTLY why it is in place. This competition is not a POLE competition per se, it is an entertainer competition, there is also a floor and chair dance element to the comp that must be included in a routine to qualify. In the competition my friend during a crucial move upside down had her shirt get caught on her earring and struggled for way longer than she should have (upsidedown layback) to get the shirt off. When she finally did she simply finished her routine as best she could. Now, a stripper myself and my other friend who is also a former stripper watching that knew exactly how we would have handled that situation and it was the same answer and was NOT what our friend had done. Why? Because we were strippers and we know how to bring the attitude when shit doesn’t go our way on stage. My friend in the comp, never having been a pro stripper didn’t know what to do. She did what an everyday woman would have done and went on with the show thereby making it totally fair. It is so unfortunate it happened to my friend, she was momentarily devastated. But it does perfectly illustrate why the rule is there. Now I’m not saying that an everyday woman who has never been a stripper couldn’t have come up with and executed the same answer as my former stripper friend and I but I am saying it’s less likely. It sucks for strippers who want to compete but at this point there are so daggone many comps out there, if you really don’t want to support the studio hey, it’s your money it is YOUR PREROGATIVE 😉 but I want you to know it’s not necessarily about discrimination. If you really like your instructor you might just have to pick a girlfriend to root on and find a comp that allows for your experience and style of dance. Or tricks if that’s what you’re into.
This sucks. it's not like the strip clubs train you on how to pole. You have to figure it out on your own or get lessons just like everybody else. Most strip clubs I've been to , most of the girls don't know how to do anything on the pole. there was usually one or two who knew how to do tricks on the pole. what if you were a stripper and never knew how to use the pole? that would not be fair to exclude them. or is it that they just don't want to "degrade the reputation" of their competition by allowing "those" kinds of women to compete? I guess I just dont understand the reasoning
LaRouge ·
I don't really get why what you do outside the studio should matter to anyone. I feel that having rules regarding conduct and dress IN the studio or while officially representing the studio, are perfectly appropriate. But ones life outside of the studio should be their own business in my opinion. The only part that *kinda* maybe makes sense to me is the amateur vs professional issue. But that's a grey area. Sigh. I'm sorry that we can't just all get along and have fun.
Hey everyone! This is a very interesting discussion, and I've got a few points and/or questions for it. My first would be this: Is the studio perhaps trying to separate itself from the "strip club" origins of pole dance by trying to remove the "sexy" aspect? Is it a single studio holding this competition? Does the studio teach any kind of sexy in their dances or moves? This would all likely go into the decision-making process for them. Not saying it's the correct decision, but all of these things may be factors. As a counter argument to the whole "professional entertainer" thing... well, I've done burlesque, and most people don't consider that to be "being a stripper." I took my clothes off on stage, but I'm not a "stripper." I have ENTERTAINED on stage, actually in a few different ways, but since I'm not a stripper, I could technically dance in this competition? Doesn't this seem strange, and rather blind to a variety of people's skills and interests, rather than just... stripping? I know a lot of natural entertainers that would easily deal with mishaps on stage, as well as being able to make everything beautiful, graceful, effortless, entertaining. So that's where I get confused Oo; Anyways, I hope that this isn't turning into a huge drama for TroubledWaters, because as much as I love to see these discussions going on (and feel that they are incredibly important for us as people, as well as a community), I am hoping that we keep in mind that pole dancing is fun, and that's what we're all here for :)
Just a thought, but if we didn't make this art form into a competition, and just had performances (where you could still challenge yourself to hit a higher level), wouldn't this resolve itself? I know, I know...people like to "win", and more and more studios like to advertise their "winning stats", so I guess the competitions aren't going away.
tacha666 ·
Aviva, I'm just curious: How does a stripper handle things like earrings getting cought in a shirt? Sorry for hijacking the thread. I too don't think that anyone should be removed from a competition. There will always be someone who might be better. That means, that you have to train harder to win, not remove the ones that might be better! But I guess it's more of an image issue in this case, maybe the owner is concerned about the studio's reputation. But as long as (former) strippers are not running around with a sign on their shirt and regarding the rules concerning clothing etc, that should totally be fine!
Almitra ·
Seriously, where the gratitude and recognition? Modern Pole dancing was born in strip clubs. As a veteran myself I can say I " stripped and pole danced side by side with 2 of the most famous American pole dancers in the world back in the 90's! We,d train after hours at 2am and teach eachother new tricks.I went out them to prove my point but I will say that 8 yrs of exotic dance "are my credentials" as an instructor in a well respected yoga studio. I am nowhere near as advanced as the 2 ladies I used work with but I still have years of experience. Funny how these SNOOTY STUDIOS shun the very women birthed this art . Every pole dancer would give their right arm to train from these ex- strippers .They've worked their asses off for nearly 15 years to earn their world titles.Careful who you judge, it may just be a World Champion!
Aviva ·
Okay I’ll try to answer what I think was specifically addressed to me….and might have to respond to some stuff that wasn’t…. To Runemist34 –Yes they do place a lot of emphasis on sexy. They teach sexy in their floor chair classes and all pole classes. The studio holds the competition between it’s students and between the three remaining studios. They have prelim rounds where each studio holds their comp to see who will go to the big show where all three studios compete. I am pretty sure (though it has been two years since I’ve worked for them) that you with your burlesque experience would also be barred from the competition. To answer the question of how to handle the stuck earring both my friend and I said the same thing. We would have-- upon finally getting unstuck and the shirt off-- sat up on the pole (it was in layback) twirled the shirt around and flung it against the wall (not into the audience b/c she didn’t want to lose that particular shirt) flung the hands in the air given the crowd the WTF??? Flung the hair…gotten the response….We were all there with her in the same agony waiting for her to get the damn shirt off, at that point the only way to save it would to be to totally acknowledge that it happened let the crowd know exactly how you felt about hence the twirl and fling of the shirt. It would have allowed the crowd to cheer the comeback and kept her in the game. But as a regular women we’ve all heard “the show must go on” so that is what she did, she went on with the show rather than making a show of the mishap which would have been way more entertaining. I agree with Oopsey Daisy 100% and believe that competition brings out the worst in people. It’s not about how hard everyone trained to win but about what they did (or didn’t do) when they got on that stage. As for the gratitude one of their studios in particular has had many workshops with the famous pole competitors many of whom are strippers or former strippers and that wasn’t even brought up when booking said artist. It’s not about discrimination it’s about these are the rules of this competition if you don’t like them don’t participate in said comp. I’ve known strippers who did the comp. anyway and lied by omission. Not my business and I’m not ratting them out that’s between them and them. Again, it’s anyone’s prerogative whether to give their money to whom but calling something discrimination when it’s not doesn’t do anything positive for you or the sport. And really, if they were so discriminatory and against strippers they wouldn’t hire them as instructors or have said world champs for their workshops.
PinkPony ·
You know, it's a funny thing. If you actually try to talk with someone who objects to exotic dance, in a very reasonable logical tone, it is often difficult for them to give a reasonable chain of logic behind their view. Asking things like Is exotic dance wrong? Why is it wrong? What do you find offensive about nudity and/or dancing? Will probably not change their mind. But it may at least reveal that their position is irrational. And remind them that strippers only dance & do not actually have sex with anyone. It's something I find many staunch believers cannot explain, they get flustered & often cannot really articulate what makes exotic dance "bad" or "wrong." Just a thought.
Or what if you entered a competition who's rules state you cannot be employed by the pornography industry? But you ignore that rule and compete any ways because that makes no effing sense.. Like what does being an adult film actress have to with pole dancing?
Thanks for your feedback Aviva, I totally concur. While I understand people feeling like it's unfair or discrimination, I do think the intent is not to let former or current strippers have an advantage. Despite the many protests here that strip club girls don't always know a lot of pole, (11 years for me in the clubs but I've been retired for more than a decade), the reality is the experience as a "pro" always makes an impact. It's just in the way we perform, like you mentioned with the shirt thing. Of course you'd make it into your routine, that's performer 101 to us. I've got friends who diligently study pole in studios and who can do killer inversions I could never do even when I was younger and in the clubs, but they still want to watch me dance and marvel at the smooth execution of movement, being able to go so slow (because that takes a lot of confidence) and to bringing on the 'sexy'. That's why everyday women get into pole. People can talk about it academically or athletically all they want, but I know the different look in a woman's eyes who's watching me dance; I know the difference between a woman who's attracted to me if she gay or bi, but I can also see when a woman just wants to know the 'secret' to being able to feel empowered via her sexuality too. Just my two cents. Pole on ladies, you rock!
Interesting points, everyone, definitely a lot to think about...
darcit ·
In many ways I agree with LilithSamael and Aviva - after working in clubs for years there are certain things (like dealing with something going wrong on stage or knowing how to move on stage based on reading the crowd) that you do just "know". And in some ways that makes you a "pro". But not in every way. It certainly doesn't mean that you know how to pole better - so if the competition is a fitness based one (i.e. more importance on execution of tricks than floorwork or dancing) then the advantage is really very minimal. Also, no matter how long you've been a performer, of any kind, you're still susceptible to random cases of nerves before you preform. You might be a little better at controlling it - or you might not. Also I feel like if you're going to ban strippers across the boards because of their performance experience - then anyone with that sort of experience should also be banned. Any one who has ever competed at any kind of dance or fitness based activity - gymnastics, dance (ballet, tap, jazz etc.) cheerleading, hooping.... Only then would it be truly an amateur competition.
I find it very interesting that our industry tends to be very quick to draw a line between exotic dance and pole dance, exclaiming quite emphatically that they are not the same thing and that being an exotic dancer does not make you a pole dancer. Then we come to competitions, both large and small, and many of these same people will ban exotic dancers from their competition because they are considered professionals. Which is it? Are exotic dancers professional pole dancers or is pole making a clean break from the exotic dance world? We can't have it both ways.
hammhigg ·
To everyone who thinks excluding a person for being a competitive dancer or gymnast. These people are not making money when they are competing. However, a stripper is making money from their background. Now, if a gymnast or dancer has performed professionally. Then yes they should not be allowed.
Why should it matter if you've made money from dancing before? It doesn't mean you've had more training, or more experience. There are many strippers who don't ANY pole tricks! It just means you were paid to dance. Whether that dancer has a high level of skill or whether she is not so good depends on the dancer's natural ability and work ethic, not on how much money she's earnt. If we discriminated against dancers who had previous professions that help them with their pole dancing, then most of the world's elite pole dancers would not be allowed to compete in Pole Art, World Pole Sports, etc. Some of them have trained and been employed as gymnasts, acrobats, ballerinas, fitness instructors, etc. Some of them have won medals at the olympics for gods sake! Some of them have had years working as dancers in clubs. WHO CARES!!?? Pole dancing should be appreciated and judged for what it is, an athletic, acrobatic, sexy, artistic dance form. Any studio, person or institution who believes that certain dancers should not be allowed to compete because of their personal lives (employment or training history) really needs to stop being so narrow-minded and prejudiced.
As far as strippers being excluded because they make money goes, wouldn't that be the same for pole stars who do work shops as well as instructors who compete? They use pole to profit. Also don't they have more experience than whoever the supposed average competitor would be? Doesn't that give them the same edge if not more than a stripper considering that they are more likely to do competition moves on a regular basis than an exotic dancer would? While I respect and appreciate people sharing so many various opinions I have yet to see a reason that would convince me that strippers should not compete in pole competitions.
I think most of us are in agreement that the question shouldn't be whether or not someone can compete, just what category: professional or amateur. A competition could easily say the requirement for the professional level is defined as receiving payment for any of these activities: teaching, performing--specifically on the pole, not just any dance style, and/or for winning a pole-specific competition.
