Is this really "Constructive" Critisism?
Replies page 2 of 4. Back to the start of the discussion
82 replies · page 2 of 4
Sign in or create a free account to reply.
Replies page 2 of 4. Back to the start of the discussion
Sign in or create a free account to reply.
↑ Show earlier replies (page 1)
I think everyone is different would respond differently to comments like that and that is where a teacher needs to get to know their students to learn how each student learns. All i can think is that if my instructor made a comment like that to me in to my body I would probably feel awful and stop going to that studio. I want someone to give me advice on how to get better using the body i have. I don't want them to just observe that I can't do something because of the body I have. But that is me....everyone responds differently. A suggestion might be to ask a student why they think they are having trouble with a move/spin and then proceed from there?
JayF1 ·
This is definitely one of those, "it's not what you say, but how you say it"...but I think it also depends on the person getting the critique. As an instructor...with thicker legs...I get what the sub was trying to explain. From what I read here...there were other contributing factors to why she was having difficulties executing the move this particular night. So, although we may feel insulted for her, I would have had to be there in order to judge the context. ALL that being said, this move is considered an "advance move" am I right? So it's a move that has to be executed by someone that not only has some skills, but also one that has been poling for a bit. It would seem to me, that she's probably already aware of what her body does and how she goes about to modify her technique in order to execute the move. So if I were put into that position...I would not take it personally. But then, I'm obnoxious and annoyingly positive...and have worked hard enough to get thru my own made up barriers...that I try to see any critique as a chance to better myself...even if it's just improving the way I let role off my back.
There must have been something in the tone of this instructor's voice that made this sound wrong because I simply cannot see anything wrong with the words...but I'm hearing them in my head being said without rancor or any judgmental tone. Let's put aside that the student has actually done this successfully in the past, forget this particular student/instructor and just talk about the situation. So if her thighs are large enough to inhibit her ability to do this move, just what WOULD someone say to her? Tell her to get stronger? That's not the problem. Tell her to get more flexible...thats not the problem either. Apprentice to superman is a move which (among other things) if you have larger thighs you're going to have trouble with and while the student may not be doing certain things correctly and requires adjustment...if the ONLY problem she is having is because of the size of her thighs then it's not only natural to point that out but we owe it to the student to point it out. Is a doctor allowed to address a person's weight problem with them? They are a professional and their job is to look after the patient's health and well being. Just like the doctor, as instructors we are the professionals that our students rely upon and we do them a disservice to mislead them. In fact, it could be dangerous to their safety if we are not honest with them. We go through trainings and certifications and workshops and educate ourselves, promoting ourselves as the professional they should come to learn from. We sell ourselves as "fitness professionals" but we don't want to act like other fitness professionals. Would you expect a personal trainer NOT to address a weight problem or how your build may interfere with your ability to do an exercise at this time? It is our job to be the professional and let them know what the problem is - and if it's not easy then you have to work on finding the right way to do it. I would expect my instructor to be gently honest with me and not try to cover up the real reason I cannot get into a move. And a lie of omission is just as harmful.
o0sair0o ·
If anyone described any part of my anatomy as 'on the thicker side' I'd be humiliated. Even to say 'different body types find different moves harder or easier' would've been a lot better. But 'thick' I would interpret that as 'you've got fat thighs'.... it might be true but no one needs it pointed out in a class! I think the instructor maybe needs a bit more tact :)
Sarah77 ·
Not constructive criticism at all. I don't see how 'thick' thighs would ever be a few back. My legs are somewhat banana shaped, and I often wish for bigger thighs. They're so much better for gripping the pole than my skinny bendy ones. I think perhaps the sub blamed the students body as she wasn't confident in her ability to teach her. If she makes it the fault I anatomy then it's not down to her teaching is it. It's that kind of attitude that gives poling a bad name, it's supposed to be fun for everyone, building strength and confidence along the way. If she can't give real constructive comments then she shouldn't be teaching.
Sarah77 ·
Draw back, not few back, also I apologise for other grammatical errors, darn auto correct on my phone. One more point, I see others are saying mentioning the 'thick' thighs is constructive, however, this is something that can be taken personally and should not have been addressed in front of the entire class.
I'm a newbie poler with relatively large thighs for my size and I'd tend to agree with Empyrean on most points here. I'd much rather an instructor pointed out if it was my build that was preventing me from getting a particular move - to me that would be less of a confidence-killer than trying it over and over again without success because it draws a line under it and lets me move on rather than my frustration with a single move making me question my overall aptitude. That said, though, the thing to remember is that we're all individuals, and the mark of a good teacher is one who can adapt her style to suit each of the different personalities and learning styles in her class. That sort of empathy and understanding takes time to build and can't be established in the course of a one hour lesson. I can fully appreciate how and why this instructor's words MIGHT be interpreted as offensive or hurtful, and maybe a sub teacher in an unfamiliar environment should have chosen her words with a bit more care.
amy ·
I think you can address and clearly discuss the anatomical reasons a student is having difficulty without using words like "thick"... "thick" to me implies that there is also a "too thin" and a "just right". But I'd rather err on the side of sensitivity, especially if I'm subbing someone else's class!
I can't see what's wrong with her comment on that. Although, of course, I haven't been there, and I did not hear the way she said it. "A bit on the thicker side" does not sound like a bad of harmful comment to me at all. She did not say "your legs are too fat for it", did she! Now THAT would've been unconstructive. If someone has bow-legs, and finds a trick difficult to do, what is wrong in poiting out that this might be a reason why she can not do it - YET? She may have to find a way to do it that it different from those with straight legs. She may not have thought about her legs being why she can't do that move yet. That's the same for thicker legs, as well as for skinny legs. Honestly, I've done this move, and I also am "a bit on the thicker side". I know that bigger thighs are exactly why that move is painful for me, and why I can not do it sometimes. So what?! That makes my victory over this move even better, everytime I get it.
Sarah77 ·
The superman is one of those moves, that no matter what size thighs you have, it burns like a mo-fo. It pinches the hell out of your skin. It's the angle of the turn and maintaining your grip that does it. It hurts from every transition, all you can do is keep at it and hope you build up a tolerance to it.
I feel as if some people in this industry lately are confusing acceptance with ignorance. Yes, as women and polers, we are to learn to accept and love our bodies. I am over 40, 5'9", carrying a few extra pounds, and not particularly flexible. I love myself and I love to pole. Does that mean I should ignore my flaws and pretend they do not inhibit things I would like to do in pole? Should my instructor not tell me that I can't do my bridge because I don't have the back flexibility required? Should my instructor not warn me that moves requiring twisted grip may stay elusive for me due to my bad wrists? She would be doing ME a DISSERVICE by not being honest about what's going on. As instructors, it is the responsible thing to clarify limitations. It doesn't have to mean you are no longer encouraging or empowering women. It means getting real and getting honest which are two incredibly empowering things all on their own.
can someone tell me what an 'advanced apprentice' is? i'm not even sure what an apprentice is and am trying to figure it out. youtube is no help, at least, i couldn't find a tutorial or a clip...
the teacher, not knowing the students history, probably should have asked 'have you done this move before?' instead of presuming the reason why the student couldn't do it at that time. there are sooo many factors as we all well know that lead to whether or not we can do moves on any particular day, so I can see her being bothered that assumptions were being made based on her body type, instead of her hands hurting or just plain being tired.
amy ·
hi chicagopoler, welcome to the forum. i think that your post was written very honestly from the perspective of someone who has done a lot of work to accept herself, and love herself. i think that is beautiful. you mention some examples of safety or liability issues with potential for injury-- which i honestly don't see in the same light as being told thighs are too thick. using terms like fat, thin, thick, skinny, flat, too big-- aren't those society's terms? who tells us what the right size is, or what the right width is? what is a flaw? who says what's wrong with us? we are what we are. when we accept our bodies the way that they are, we also accept that we need to stop using someone else's ruler to judge ourselves. yes, i can laugh a lot more easily than i used to when someone says i'm skinny, because i know i can kick ass on a pole. but does it make it okay that someone says it? not really. i'm not going to get angry about it, but do i have to accept that? my calves may be too thick to fit into nearly all the knee-high boots that are cute, but is that a flaw? i say that more boots should be made with elastic tops! well, they might not be so cute then. but you get the point. if someone is having difficulty turning over in from apprentice to superman (assuming i undertsand the combo), it's usually because they can't get their weight properly pressing into the front of the bottom thigh and don't have the top thigh free enough to turn over. if they can't correct the weight imbalance and understand the mechanics of the pose and prep to go into superman, then they should try it from the floor or with a grounded leg. or, they can push the pole into the bottom leg a little closer towards the knee so that they can create teh room to turn over. i simply don't understand how this trick, or failure to do it, could have been so simply attributed to the size of the students thighs. yes, the teacher's role is to empower... and show a student that their limitations aren't where they thought they were. how empowering is it to nail something that you didn't think you could? modifications to make a trick easier, or work for their body type, aren't always possible, but in this case they very much are.
Amy it appears that you believe that regardless of someone's size they should always be able to attain a move if the teacher is good enough to find a way to help them. That size never matters. No pun intended but size does matter! I've worked with many women who are simply too large to do a move be it a simple spin, a handspring or any advanced move. And if someone has larger thighs which do not allow them to bend the knee quite as well or to thread the leg through then it definitely can be THE reason she cannot get the move. What do you tell a woman who weighs over 220 pounds, has incredible upper body strength but cannot handspring? Is it realistic to say that the instructor just needs to find another way to help her modify the move? What about the 350+ pound poler I had who was frustrated that she cannot lift into a fireman spin the way others could? I modified, showed her a grounded spin and reminded her that as she progressed and gained strength and lost more weight she could do anything she wanted. She was quite pleased with my response! I think a lot of people are looking into their own personal feelings too much and taking this whole situation with more sensitivity than may be necessary. As a registered nurse I spent many years in my profession discussing things from a realistic approach with my patients. I am still a professional - in a different field, and we work with all different body types every day and have to address many things in addition to "thicker thighs". If someone doesn't like using that term then they need to find one THEY are more comfortable with but realize that not everyone is so sensitive and some are more realistic.
DaniDuB ·
Awesome post, Amy! Very well said.
This thread has got me pondering...Now that I think about it, going into a superman is pretty tough for me cuz my big old thighs get stuck to the pole mid switch. Interesting...I wonder if it woudn't be so bad on a slipperier pole, or if I just have to figure a way around it.
Just to add/clarify... Only Dani was there but regardless it could well be that the instructor was wrong and the student only needed a modification...it appears the student was just fatigued and sore...and the instructor jumped the gun. But it could also very well be that someone, some time can't do this move because of their weight or build, including leg structure. Find a way to teach that you are comfortable with and if you are uncomfortable with something you need to let your instructor or the studio owner know. We actually have a pretty high student population of larger women in our studio. In 7 years of teaching I've NEVER had a complaint about any of my instructors being insensitive, rude or crude and we all address our students from what I feel is a position of being realistic.
amy ·
Empyrean, I believe that by showing the student a groudned fireman you showed her a wonderful modification to make the move work for her. she may have thought she couldn't do the move at all, but you showed her she could :) The student that can't do a handspring-- can she do a caterpillar climb? An elbow-grip or split grip ayesha? Those would be precursors, right? Then it's not about her not being able to do a handpring, but about showing her other moves that she can work on as building blocks in the meantime to work towards success. if you have success in your studio that is fantastic! and i am glad that you have found what works for you and your students. but real people posted in this very thread that they would have found such a comment hurtful, and to say that they shouldn't have felt hurt isn't right. I think some people always will. as teachers, we deal with personal feelings! if there are other ways to say something, or work with a student in baby steps towards success, that road should be taken.
I didn't just point out an alternate move for my student...I didn't just ignore what she could not acheive and distract her with something else. I also pointed out that she could not lift into an aerial spin and why she could not. I never said that she "shouldn't" have felt hurt. Also not that real people, who are also larger women, also posted that they would NOT have felt hurt. I also posted that perhaps this was the wrong approach in this particular situation. However I am also pointing out that there are situations in which it is not at all incorrect to address that a student's body shape or size is "the" contributing factor to not getting a move. It's well and fine to address precursor moves but that is presuming that the student isn't insisting on getting the handspring. Also maybe they can't do those moves either - because of their size/build! It's simply something that may need to be addressed. Not all students are built to do all moves.
Veena ·
I totally agree that not all moves are suitable for all students. It is important for both student and teachers to be realistic and what may seem harsh to one person my not to another.
Amy - thanks for the welcome. I've actually been a member of Veena for quite some time now. I just tend to be what most would consider a "lurker" rather than an active poster. Let me first just say that I agree the comment the sub made wasn't necessary when we are given ALL the facts, including that it was a callous issue. That, however, was not presented in the original post. The omission of those facts seem to imply that the poster was actually just asking if the "thick thighs" statement was acceptable at all... That being said I'd like to address the "thick thighs". The word thick is an adjective - a describing word. It is not a derogatory term by definition. Those aren't society's terms... Society only attempts to determine what the acceptable or not acceptable levels of these are when referring to our bodies. How else would you describe thick thighs or thin thighs? You need adjectives to differentiate between the two and I can't think of two less offensive words for either. Why does being told someone has thick thighs have to be offensive? I bet I'd be hard pressed finding a man who was offended being told he had a thick penis.... (men on this forum - please interject if I'm off base here) Words only have the power we give them. Personally, my thick thighs aren't going anywhere. They have been passed down generation to generation of women in my family. What else am I supposed to call them? Is it wrong for an instructor to tell me that because of my thicker thighs that I need to learn just-the-right-amount of spread to slide to get into that superman or for that same instructor to tell another student that because of her thin thighs she needs to grip the pole tighter so she doesn't slide right down? I don't think so - and I also think if it had been a thin thigh comment.... It wouldn't have even been noticed enough to become the topic of this thread.
Along the line of what ChicagoPoler said, thick thighs do not mean someone is fat. When I was super thin (and people said I was wasting away) I STILL had thighs that were on the large side. It's part of my genes to have christmas hams for thighs. It doesn't bother me anymore (and my man loves them!)
amy ·
in the context of a larger conversation about weight, and size, and self perception, i think this thread is awesome! chicagopoler, i think that thick and thin are comparative words. they don't mean anything without a benchmark, and my question would be what is the benchmark? is it "average"? thick to someone who is haitian who thinks of weight as an indicator of wealth, versus an american, is very different! thick and thin are definitely adjectives but i believe that to use them in reference to describing someone else puts the speaker's values into the equation. i dont think that thick or thin are inherently offensive words, but depending on where someone has come from, and what values they carry, those words can be heavy. so yes, words have the power we give them... as a listener, and as a speaker, and you can never be in both roles at the same time or understand exactly how those words might make someone feel. you can call your thighs whatever you want, because they're yours. some peopel even feel that when they use words that are negative, that it can be a way to take power away from the words. i will say that i have been told that i'm skinny, and it was offensive to me. i've also been told that i need to gain weight, that i couldn't psosibly be over 100 lbs (when i'm well over that!) and i foudn that offensive as well. i've had classmates tell me that things are easy for me because "you're so light". i've seen people be surprsied at what i eat, and how i eat, and i think it's amazing how many judgments people pass without realizing it. i've had a student tell me that her last instructor told her that her legs were "too skinny" to grip the pole to climb, and she was hurt by that and discouraged. so yes, it does absolutely go both ways. in her case, her instructor failed to look past the snap judgment of what width her legs were, and see how her technique could be modified to allow her to climb (she also needed lotion, because her legs were dry as paper, but her instructor didn't bother to look at that either...).
There are many variables.....we can come up with tons of "ifs" or even very real scenarios if you're just interested in arguing a diferent way. BUT.....what if the ONLY reason really was that she had larger/more shapely/bigger/curvier/thicker thighs???? So that is THE ONLY REASON a person cannot get a move. We are not going to presume that the teacher is wrong, insensitive or just plain rude....maybe, in some cases, the instructor just might be right on target. What does she do then? You MIGHT have to address it at some point.
