Tigerschic041721 started this discussion ·
Just thought I'd share...not even sure how I found this site (maybe someone here) but thought this was an interesting read since just about every flex class I've been to and several pole class warmups have used the "don't do this" stretch. The first vid explains positioning second is a cool advanced version. Any thoughts?
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Taking a look at the website itself, I'm not really filled with professional interest. Her credentials are minimal at best, and the explanations on the site about this particular stretch are all very specific to what you may or may not be doing. Things like keeping your spine straight and your pelvis level are still possible with the forward lunge- and, they may also be advisable. However, my main argument would be this: I'm not seeing any indications that this "replacement stretch" is going to bring us closer to something like the front splits, nor am I seeing any indication that it would be an appropriate stretch for the hip flexors. It's very poorly explained in these ways, and as the post moves into talking about this "replacement stretch," it talks more about strength training, rather than flexibility. The hips, and the rest of the body, are complicated things. What can be good for some people are not good for others. I have heard lots of people say that you shouldn't roll your head in a complete circle, I've heard that running will cause my knees to feel even worse (since running, I have been out of chronic pain for a total of four months), I have heard that squats that bring your hips lower than your knees are doing absolutely nothing, or may even be damaging. Few, and probably none of these things are true. But, we will always get conjecture and speculation, "advice" and recommendations as to what we're supposed to be doing or not doing with our bodies. However, I would be more inclined to trust results and science, than all of that. Thousands and thousands of ballet dancers, as well as other dancers (and other people besides), around the world, use the forward lunge stretch, and I have heard very little in the way of adverse effects, unless the person does it incorrectly, too hard, or has a particular issue with their hip. So, that's where my trust goes.
I'm actually gonna have to agree with the website....i think the STRETCH YOU HAVE TO STOP DOING NOW title is a little extreme, but i agree with her general points. The context is important, the author even admits in the article that she no longer has her splits. but her goal is not contortion, its safety and injury prevention. she specializes in working with dancers and hypermobile clients...and as a hypermobile person, the advice she is giving is especially good. The deal with that stretch is, like Runemist mentions, the author is arguing against specifically THAT picture. The rotated hips, arched back....the hip flexors are not actually being stretched much at all, the lower back is just arching a lot. If you were to do the lung stretch with your hips level and your back straight (pelvis dropped), it is unlikely you will get anywhere NEAR the range the girl in the picture does. If done correctly and properly aligned, Veena's psoas stretch is more likely where you'll be, and I imagine is at least part of why Veena has you put your hand on your lower back in that video, to prevent the low back from arching so that you ARE actually getting a stretch in your hip flexors (but its not my video, so I can't fairly say, but she may even say it in the video i cant recall ;). Overall, the main point of this article (which is mentioned in the beginning) is that strength and stability are more important than extreme flexibility. This would be especially true of the author's hypermobile clients. Another one of her points is that continually stretching in this misaligned manner will keep overstretching in areas that FEEL tight which may feel this way because the connective tissue is so loose that the muscles are spasming to try and stabilize the joint. This creates quite a vicious cycle of feeling tight so you stretch, then youre overstretched so you feel tight etc. So while doing this stretch might not result in immediate injury, it likely will over time. Again, almost EVERYONE does this stretch incorrectly and its why i think she goes all alarmist like YOU HAVE TO STOP. The replacement stretches that replace that lunge stretch/is in fact kind of the same stretch just lined up properly. And being able to breath like he does in that video really is an excellent way to make sure you haven't stretched too far. If you are catching your breath/breathing shallowly, its because your body initiated a pain response and you should come out of the stretch enough so that you are able to breath comfortably again. The stretch will eventually deepen if you breath and wait and hang out at that edge where the breath lives. It might be tiny improvements but it will happen. As far as trusting ballerinas and dancers on using this stretch...dancers and ESPECIALLY ballerinas are injured ALL the time. they just dance through it. they are the first ones to tell you that what they do is push their body through unnatural movement, and i've not met a single dancer who does not have a history of injuries. again, it might not be through doing this stretch one specific time, but over time doing things like this and giving their joints extreme hypermobility eventually leads to injury. all joints of the body rely on a balance of stability and mobility, having to much of either leads to injury, this article stresses the importance of both. and man...as far as flex classes....those get real scary real quickly, im more sensitive to it because im hypermobile, but i havent been in a class yet where multiple questionable movements/practices were happening. like BAD. so just be aware that not all teachers know the risks of all movements and stay safe
Veena ·
The replacement stretch is actually awesome, but I would place it in a conditioning category, not just a stretch. It's actually on my list of things to record however, I didn't know that was the name Half Kneeling. I would say if you cannot perform the Half kneeling properly then you would not want to Lunge. A lunge can be nice, if done properly and with the knowledge that as you progress you could include the back (the whole spine not just the lower) in the stretch. Is a lunge the BEST way to stretch hip flexors, nah, a lunge is not the ultimate stretch, but if done carefully I still say it's a nice option! As for the over spilt photo...ugh...For years I've been frustrated with the obsession of doing Over splits training among pole dancers. It's often a suggested method of trying to work on Jade or Splits. BUT It's also just not necessary and can be very harsh on the joints. I don't do overspilt training and for now see no reason to! I have a nice flat jade, I can do splits and I think my lines are nice. Here is a video I made talking about Hip flexors and stretching them. You will also find this vid and more in the Veena's Tips lesson section. :) https://www.studioveena.com/videos/view/535743ed-9b88-4d0d-a481-534e0a9aa0eb
kasanya ·
I actually thought it was a good blog post. Monika's credentials may not be particularly impressive, but the information she's presenting is in line with what I've been seeing from other people like Dean Somerset, Katy Bowman, Kit Laughlin, and Kristina from Fit & Bendy. These are all people with much more extensive credentials who are well-respected in their particular fields, which include biomechanics, post-rehab, strength training and flexibility training. It's not a question of whether it's _possible_ or _advisable_ to keep your pelvis in neutral when performing this particular stretch. The point is, if it's not neutral, you aren't actually stretching your hip flexors at all. How do we know this? Well, contracting the hip flexors has different results depending on your connection to the ground. If you allow the leg to move, then the hip flexors pull the leg up towards the pelvis and you get hip flexion. If you _don't_ allow the leg to move, then the hip flexors pull the pelvis forward towards the legs and you get an anterior pelvic tilt. So, if you're hanging out in a forward lunge and allow your pelvis to tilt forward (and your lower back to arch), what you're actually doing is contracting the hip flexors rather than stretching them. Dean Somerset has an excellent blog post explaining why this happens for many people: http://deansomerset.com/some-reasons-why-you-should-stop-stretching-your-hip-flexors/ The half kneeling position that Monika is recommending is actually the exact same forward lunge hip flexor stretch performed with neutral alignment. Most people will feel it in their quads though for a couple of reasons. First of all, the rectus femoris muscle in the quads is actually one of the four muscles that collectively make up "the hip flexors". So even if you're feeling this stretch in the front of your thigh, rather than the hips, you're still stretching one of the hip flexors. Secondly, the rectus femoris is chronically tight in people who sit a lot. Which is most of us. And lastly, the rectus femoris also crosses the knee joint and is responsible for knee extension. This means any position where the knee is bent is going to add extra tension to the rectus femoris. So, the take away from all this is that you're going to have to lengthen your quads before you'll ever be able to push that lunge forward and move that stretch deeper into the hips. As a side note, if you're interested in finding out how tight your quads actually are, this blog post from Katy Bowman is quite interesting: http://www.katysays.com/quad-stretch-fakeout/ If you would like to play around with some different hip flexor stretches, Kit Laughin has several posted on his YouTube channel. Notice his emphasis in the standing versions on squaring the hips and not allowing the pelvis to tilt forward. The stretches also involve straightening the back leg, which allows more of the stretch to be felt in the deeper hip flexors such as the illiacus and psoas. Solo Lunge Hip Flexor Stretch - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bWQGIm9raw Solo Standing Hip Flexor Stretch - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHwyBHS6MQs Band Assisted Solo Standing Hip Flexor Stretch - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPBSTE7Yk8w As for anecdotal evidence, there are also thousands and thousands of ballet dancers who have had to give up dancing because of the abuse they put their bodies through. Just because something has always been done a certain way doesn't mean it's the best way of going about it.
I'm so behind on EVERYTHING! I need to read at watch all these videos. I'm wondering how people feel about a lizard stretch Like This: http://yogaposeweekly.letsglo.comhttps://pub-a085b59791bc4c1a94b0a223a67a37d6.r2.dev/wp-uploads/2014/11/Lizard2.jpg And the variation with the back leg on the ground, Like this: http://media1.popsugar-assets.com/files/ons1/192/1922729/30_2009/6eb75571c80d2066_Grasshopper-pose/i/How-Do-Lizard-Pose-aka-Utthan-Pristhasana.jpg I really love this conversation. I'm really learning a lot. :)
kasanya ·
Those look like slightly more advanced variations of Kit's solo lunge hip flexor stretch. If you look at the position of the pelvis in the first picture, she's actually got a bit of a posterior tilt happening (the lower back is rounding slightly). This means the hip flexors are being extended even more than if the pelvis were in neutral. Pretty intense! I don't have enough flexibility to get into that position myself, but I would bet it's a fantastic stretch for those who are ready for it. The only thing I would do differently is look down rather than forward. Hyperextending the neck serves no real purpose here.
I like you kasanya. I like you a lot :)
Thank you Kasanya for your response. I asked because its a favorite stretch of mine. I use yoga blocks though because I definitely don't have the flexibility. :) I really like stretches I can sink into... I really need to head to bed now, but I'm going to send you a friend request because I want to pick your brain and ask you a Q or two about B&P cause you mentioned it in your bio. :) Thanks again for your help!
Veena ·
I love stretching Hip Flexors and like/use the pose you shared Allyson. For those who have the lessons you can see that the still shot for Lunge thigh stretch is what the article calls Half Kneeling! It's the first thing I teach before moving on to anything deeper. So when I refer to a lunge I'm not talking about the photo in the article where you turn hips or arch the low back. https://www.studioveena.com/lessons/view/4dfb5178-ba64-438e-8bf4-5f360ac37250 Worth checking out the lesson to see the different poses and how they change the intensity of the stretch. Once you understand how to "reach" the hip Flexors then using the beginning position "half kneeling" and moving onto a deeper lunge (Maintaining neutral pelvis) and then lifting through the spine reaching back is a great stretch, but again, targets more than just hip Flexors. It's a good way to prepare for back bending. So just to be clear, there is really no point in performing the lunge as shown in the article, the form is bad.
Wow so much great insight! I am by no means a flex expert so love how much I can learn from all of your thoughts. AK I do the lizard stretch since it's useful for the famous alethea floor split so I hope it's a good one. I need to go back again to read more in depth from this full convo. And ha! I my auto correct wrote "hope" flexor 😂 guess I do need hope in the flexy dept so it works.
With so much feedback going on in this thread, it's hard for me to keep up, but I will freely admit that I am no expert, and I was probably entirely wrong! This thread has made me think about the ways I stretch my hips, and consider the ideas of different stretches, rather than the forward lunge. When doing that stretch, I do my best to keep my spine straight (though I am certainly farther off than I'd like) and my hips aligned, but I am, again, no expert, and have little experience with looking at other people in those positions to determine what's going on. So, thank you to everyone in this thread that made me think about my quick judgements about popular stretches. I'm off to do more research!
