Do you dance by counts?

Angie La started this discussion · 5/10/2013

I know in traditional dance classes, they dance to 8 counts or whatever. Since I've learned nearly the majority of what I've learned with pole at home, on my own with my computer and online lessons and tutorials, I've never counted out my movements. I try to hold poses for about 4 counts or more, but that's it. One of my students was annoyed that the sequence I was teaching them was not done to counts of 8 or however she was thinking, it was supposed to be counted out. With pole dance I always just felt the motions with the songs. I wanted to teach them sequences, and then we try them with different songs to see how differently we move with the music, to the same series of movements. I was so taken off guard when she said this and said ok well maybe we can try it your way to dance to counts of 8. I couldn't do it... It felt so cold, robotic, and not how I have learned pole to be. So my questions is... Do you dance to counts? Or, do you dance to how the way the music makes you feel? Is it possible to teach choreo or sequences without counts..? I'm not really into the whole synchronized pole dance things. She even make a reference to YouTube videos where the "graduating" pole class, of sorts, all danced to the same beat and did the same movement. I don't care for this style so I don't teach it. I also don't dance for people, I dance for me... So, I'm a bit confused and hurt because I spent a lot of time putting these lessons together. I put in a lot of thought into giving them exercises to feel the music, talk about what blocks us from dancing and being in the moment. I have a small studio, and this was a vision for me to have people being able to rediscover themselves through pole dance. Sure we do pole fitness when we are using the pole to do strength training...but I teach pole arts, not synchro-pole. Sorry that was also a bit of me venting :-/

34 replies

Angie La · 5/10/2013
I know in traditional dance classes, they dance to 8 counts or whatever. Since I've learned nearly the majority of what I've learned with pole at home, on my own with my computer and online lessons and tutorials, I've never counted out my movements. I try to hold poses for about 4 counts or more, but that's it. One of my students was annoyed that the sequence I was teaching them was not done to counts of 8 or however she was thinking, it was supposed to be counted out. With pole dance I always just felt the motions with the songs. I wanted to teach them sequences, and then we try them with different songs to see how differently we move with the music, to the same series of movements. I was so taken off guard when she said this and said ok well maybe we can try it your way to dance to counts of 8. I couldn't do it... It felt so cold, robotic, and not how I have learned pole to be. So my questions is... Do you dance to counts? Or, do you dance to how the way the music makes you feel? Is it possible to teach choreo or sequences without counts..? I'm not really into the whole synchronized pole dance things. She even make a reference to YouTube videos where the "graduating" pole class, of sorts, all danced to the same beat and did the same movement. I don't care for this style so I don't teach it. I also don't dance for people, I dance for me... So, I'm a bit confused and hurt because I spent a lot of time putting these lessons together. I put in a lot of thought into giving them exercises to feel the music, talk about what blocks us from dancing and being in the moment. I have a small studio, and this was a vision for me to have people being able to rediscover themselves through pole dance. Sure we do pole fitness when we are using the pole to do strength training...but I teach pole arts, not synchro-pole. Sorry that was also a bit of me venting :-/
Angie La · 5/10/2013
Again with the double posts, sorry! My silly ipad...
MariYabe · 5/10/2013
I teach too and recently started teaching pole choreography because some girls like myself are bored to tears of just going to "gymnastics" class, Learning new trendy tricks is fine but if you never put them together to music what is the point? Choreography is super hard and it is a ton of work because, as you know, you have to think about the music, the mood and how to string together sequences that fit and make sense. You have to be creative and dig deep. Having said that, I do use 8 counts, otherwise I'd get lost or forget. I need to anchor on an 8 count sequence. It gives my brain structure. It is a bit robotic at first, but by repeating 8 counts over and over, it eventually helps my body's muscle memory and then it BECOMES my dance, and I can flow and fully express myself "let go". I've noticed that even though we are all moving together, we all look different. Everyone has their own unique style. There is no right or wrong when it come to dance. Your student is just coming from a traditional school of "dance" and some people prefer and respond better to that style.
Angie La · 5/10/2013
Thanks for your response. I feel totally bummed bc I don't even know if I know how to count and dance... Does that sound crazy?
Dwiizie · 5/10/2013
I CAN dance to counts, its kind of required for most group choreography, but with pole dance, I feel expression is more important. If you were making a perfectly uniform dance for every girl to look identical and to land on this beat and flex a hand on that beat, its so hard to try and use, say, the words of the song to try and convey that to dancers. If you're in a class setting, however, I think that each student putting their own style on the basic structure is awesome. If you really want to you can dance a song your way, then just watch it and map out what you did to teach it in counts. I definitely feel you. There was recently a dance and you had to slide up on a four count and it was sooo much prettier to slide up and increase speed because the music heightened, but impossible to make it uniform, so counts it was.
aliceBheartless · 5/10/2013
Counts can be tough for sure. Especially if you don't like thinking about music that way. I come from a classical piano background though, and for me, counts are everything, because music is fairly mathematical. The counts are as important as the notes. However, for me, that doesn't make it robotic. Classical music can be SO expressive (any pretty much any kind of music). Me dancing to it, is another thing though. ;) If I am performing, I choreograph to counts, whether I am performing solo or group setting, and in those cases, like Mariyabe I do it over and over. The counts become instinct because they are dictated by the music. My best video ever, an audition video, comes from a counted out sequence. But mostly I just freestyle when I dance. Almost all of my youtube videos are freestyled. I do like the freedom of testing out music. But I can see where you would get all kinds at a studio. For some people, counting is the basic structure from which to build and that would find other things confusing.
Mary Ellyn · 5/10/2013
For the most part I do not teach to counts. I MIGHT occasionally say 1-2-3-4 if I want them to hold something or if I'm finding the particular string of moves I'm teaching is easier to follow or understand if I throw a count in at different point...but I never count out the whole thing. More often than anything I may count the start of the song so that they are all ready to start at the same time. I agree with just dancing with the flow and I find for people who don't know how to dance to counts it's not always that easy but it's easier to train them to listen and move to the beat...which is kind of the same thing without putting numbers to it. You certainly don't have to teach to a count and it's mostly experienced dancers who will call you on this. You just have to explain that pole dancing is different as you want each student to interpret their movement to the song their own way. Plus counting can really confuse students who aren't use to it. If anything I wouldn't teach as much with counts until they are a bit more familiar with HOW to pole dance. To the people who ask about it I usually explain the above and then add that we use counts when we train a group piece for performance or we might use it when we are ready to compete or perform ourselves.
Dwiizie · 5/10/2013
I really like taking cues from music. Like with my hoop routines, a lot has to be freestyle because the hoop has a mind of its own. But as long as I get into vertical plane when the cowbell comes in its cool, bust out when the band kicks in full swing. Usually I'm listening to that cowbell or the building vocals right before I know the band is coming in. I do NOT like when teachers count out the song when actually doing the whole routine. When learning its fine, but if someone is just "one and two and three and four fiiiive six seven and eiiiight!! One two three four hooooold six seven hold eight" Oh I want to choke them.
SpyralBound · 5/10/2013
Counts make sense when you're teaching a group routine to a certain song, because as long as everyone is counting at the same pace and knows where their body has to be at each count, that makes it easy to synchronize. But if you're just teaching a combo, or a sequence, then there's nothing to "count" to, it's just Step 1, Step 2, Step 3 etc. It's rare that I choreo anything because I don't perform much and have little use for routines, but I do sort of break it down into "sections" of the song, if not actual rhythmic counts. Like, first verse is floorwork and then when this guitar part comes in, I start climbing, and then I'll invert at the chorus... that kind of thing. I personally hate the classes where everyone learns the same routine and does it in sync. I like watching a synchronized group routine, but I hate learning one. I took my first pole sampler class at a studio that teaches this way, you sign up for a 6-week series and everyone learns the same moves and puts it together with a song, and it turned me off so bad. The song was some Christina Aguilera crap (Candyman or something?) and after the 7th time running through the first 30 seconds of the song, I was like Pfffft I'm so done with this. I learned right then and there, I can't have someone else picking out my music for me, let alone telling me how to dance to it.
JBStarryEyedGirl · 5/10/2013
I teach by counts, and I also teach by movement. Some students catch on faster when I put each step to a count, others learn better when I show and then they just repeat. I typically use counts for choreographed class routines, simply because it is easy to teach a group. I do encourage my students to learn freestyle as well, we also learn a few moves and then dance to different songs as well. I also give them freestyle time at the end of class to explore their own movement. Remember this though, it's YOUR class. You can teach any way you want. Not everyone will like it, or pick it up, but it's your choice. Your student may have been frustrated, or unable to pick up the moves, lots of people struggle with free movement. I also agree that former dancers, cheerleaders, etc seem to focus on breaking things down into counts.
dustbunny · 5/10/2013
I do a bit of both when I teach. Since I teach really small classes, I personalize it to whatever the background is, or try both and see how they respond. Sometimes I use a combination, I don't just count the numbers, but substitute more descriptive words. "Inside, Outside, Back to the pole..."
Judy Jovanelly · 5/10/2013
Okie dokie... I'm am an old school ( yes really old... Born in 1958) dancer. I grew up in a dance studio, taking classes in jazz tap and ballet..... There was "modern" but "contemporary" was a long ways off... We counted EVERYTHING. We even played around with different time signatures: 3/4; 5/4; 6/8.,. And it was a freakin BLAST. ! With that said, pole's a different thang in my opinion.,,, You get to to alternate between counting and feeling. Ain't nuthin wrong widdat ! So... I guess my message regarding counting is : who cares? If you really need the counts, go take a ballet, ballroom or tap class :-)
Hazi411 · 5/10/2013
OMG jayjay125 - if you are old school (really old), then I must be positively ancient! (Born in 1955!) ;-)
HotelChick · 5/11/2013
I have a music background but not a dance background. I can count music but would find myself intimidated by dancing to counts. I think your lesson plan sounds amazing and very adaptable. I would love to take your class! I find that I often adapt the lessons I've learned here, in class, or via DVD to my own style once I have the mechanics mastered. Don't abandon your lesson plans. Explain to all students that your choreo is meant to be adapted. That's why you teach it to different music styles. So, if they prefer to count, they can. If they prefer to wander off into their own world, they can do that too :) For example, I love Alethea's floorwork DVD and I follow her instruction. However, when she gets to the choreo portion of the DVD, I do not follow her. I just feel the music and do my own floor dance, adapting her moves and adding others I've learned here and in studio. My floor dance is different every time.
Dancing Paws · 5/11/2013
I used to, because it was so engrained in me. I still do for bellydance, but not with pole. Pole allows for more flow, slow and arrhythmic movements. I just go more with the feel of the music and emphasizing the strong points in the music.
Sassafrassle · 5/11/2013
I think it's probably a dance background thing - I've learnt various forms of dance over the years and have quite a mathematical brain so putting together a routine is quite a methodical thing about figuring out what I want to do an when and figuring out how long I want to hold something so that everything fits in just right to the music. That doesn't mean there's no passion in it - it's about having it go perfectly with how I want it to to the music. I have a friend though who has no dance background other than pole and she works in the opposite way and I find it pretty hard to learn routines from her because I like to know where things will be and at what time, especially if it's a routine being done by a group. But you know what - both of us can put together great routines and there's no right or wrong way to do it! It may be a bit frustrating for people to try and learn it your way when they're used to another way but if you changed it, there would be yet other people again who might not like the other way! Basically, you're in charge and they have to suck it up and do what you've put together! Maybe if you had some time where people can put together their own choreo, they could have a crack at it their way but otherwise, it's your hard work that's gone into it and you're the boss!
Angie La · 5/11/2013
Thank you so much for all of your thoughts and experience with this. I'm starting to get a better sense of how I can go about this... I want people to find their own style, and if counting movements is her style, then I can show her the motions and she can count them out to the songs as she wishes. I just feel the music...but finding someone's path of part of the process that I love so much about pole. Thanks again for all of your thoughts since they have been very helpful :)
Storypole17 · 5/12/2013
It depends. Most of the time I just have a list of moves, fillers, and transitions and will dance it out at whatever pace to any song. I find that most students like this because they can move at their own rate. However, if I'm doing a workshop with choreography to a specific song, I will teach it using 8 counts because there are parts of the song that need to be accentuated with the movement. That way, we are all on the same page.
pegasusaerialfitness · 5/13/2013
I personally do not teach with counts..I don't have a dance background. I can't stand the choreo classes that I have taken...when they use counting or the north,south, east, west thing..I find its more distracting to trying to figure out what number or direction you are in it really slows me down.. I do teach a sequence of movements so they can learn the transitions and possible ins and outs of moves. If someone was a counter in class I might just ask them to show me the count and to entertain her for a moment. I would just be honest and say..you are the official counter since I can't count generally past three anyway.. I start to skip numbers ..I do this in my pilates and barre classes too, so when someone is a rep counter i ask them to be the counter. i just tell them too, i cant pay atention to them if i just counting it out. I seem to have an intuition when it comes to the reps, so at least I have that.
darcit · 5/13/2013
I do have a dance background (ballet, tap, jazz) and I don't dance or teach by counts. I teach a series of movements and then the students can do it as fast or as slowly as they like. I really like the idea of trying the same sequence with different songs. I'm going to have to start incorporating that! I feel like pole is about moving when the music moves you and everyone dancing their own dance. And I tell my students I want them to learn to think through the moves themselves and do what works for them rather than trying to just copy the way I dance.
pegasusaerialfitness · 5/13/2013
Well said darcit
Reyn · 5/31/2013
Am I the only one with a MUSICAL background having trouble with DANCE counts???? I played the flute for seven years through school, I know how to count music but the way I hear dance counts throws my brain for such a loop! I can usually learn to the counts, but actually using them myself? Nope, doesn't work. I really wish I could though, I taught my first choreographed dance the other day and I felt like it really lacked the smooth synchronization because I couldn't direct them in counts.
Angie La · 5/31/2013
Oh so since I started this whole thing, I realized I don't count because it blocks my creativity and freedom of movement. I teach movement and the rest should be for personal interpretation... That is what I love about pole dance and frees me from needing to be so calculating. So, I do not teach synchronized pole...I may talk through the motions as I do them, but that is it. I want them to find themselves like I found myself through the motions. So, I guess I am still an art teacher at heart, just not in a traditional art classroom ;)
Angie La · 5/31/2013
And we DID do the same short choreo to a different song, though similar genre. It was awesome how it felt! Next I want to try a different genre and see how it goes. Some of my girls HATE this...it's too fast, or it's too slow, they say. I say, "make it work, that's your challenge" ;). And what they come up with might be a filler or something that wasn't there before...it's organic and very fun!
Angie La · 6/6/2013
Here are 4 dances I did to the same sequence... Some flowed better than others but I tried countless songs. This has really helped me to come out of a dancing lull. It has healed a part of me that I feel like I've needed since I started teaching. I haven't been learning much "new" stuff, old lost moves, or moves I've wanted for a while (except the tumble and figure 8 fan legs on spin) since my body is still adjusting. I need to upload those videos but I'm mostly using my ipad now...but I WILL upload it! And whooo, here are the YouTube links until I can make some pretty videos with editing, etc. So this was an exercise... I named the class PolEmotion after emotioncatcher, my pole buddy while I was living in Germany...whom I miss very much, so I named a class after her studio (with permission). Sequence 1 (the original song) http://youtu.be/MBaEjzRylfI Sequence exercise 2 http://youtu.be/ifnlfACbdh4 Sequence exercise 3 http://youtu.be/T0eYW-qvj2g Sequence exercise 4 http://youtu.be/Skp6eP9U644 Let me know what you think! :)

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