Correct shoulder/scapula placement help

skramamme started this discussion · 6/9/2015

I have kinda crappy posture and use a proper corset (steel boned etc) a few times a week to help remind me how it feels to sit straight but my shoulders are still rounded (it's amazing how my abs and back work whilst wearing the corset, it has helped a lot over the last year but I need to be more consistent using it). I know a lot of my posture problems are to do with pelvic tilt, sway back and scoliosis, which obviously throws everything out of whack, but I'm trying to improve things where I can. Anyway, I am doing the scapula front, neutral and back exercises to try and get the feel for correct shoulder/scapular position but every time I do a spin or anything like that I can feel my shoulder pull forward and overextend outwards and it's making my shoulders ache (plus my elbows are aching a bit too). So what else can I do to get my body not only used to the feeling of a neutral scapula but able to keep that position when poling? Ta, Emma

22 replies

AllysonKendal · 6/9/2015
I've had similar issues with posture.... If you look back in my profile somewhere I have a post with a pic asking questions about posture. Most of it has been corrected by just strengthening my core. I'm not THAT informed on the subject but I've traditionally been anti-corset. But again, don't take my word for it. Anyway, back to the question regarding the scapula. I'm not sure posture is 100% at fault. I think it takes time to build the muscles to hold your scapula in that correct position while supporting your weight. And spins can be notoriously hard on the shoulders, even for experienced dancers. I'm sure someone else can advise better, but I'd recommended some of veenas conditioning exercises and just taking it easy with spins. Limit yourself to a certain amount per side. :)that's what I would do anyway.
CD Hussey fka Jivete · 6/9/2015
You probably need to strengthen the back muscles and stretch the chest muscles. I've struggled with an over developed front body and have been lifting weights to help balance it and it is helping. Reverse Flys and Rows have really helped. I'm also working to really open the chest with Stretching.
Veena · 6/9/2015
I would avoid wearing the corset! Doing so will actually cause the core to become weak, because it doesn't need to support it's self when wearing it. The best thing you can do for posture is practice and be diligent with conditioning work everyday, maybe even several times a day. You will find great stuff here in the conditioning section and veena's tips section as well. You will need to continue to work on strength building moves like pole climbs, holds and such to build the muscle memory and strength to be able to properly perform static spins, this is why I have spins placed last in the beginner section. Here are a few other things that will help with core and overall posture: Don't use the back of chairs, sit up and away, using the core to hold you instead of the chair. If you sit at a desk try taking breaks to stand up and do some posture exercises a few time every hour. Work on your breathing, working on becoming aware of your breathing can help relax the upper body and relive stress and muscle pain.
skramamme · 6/9/2015
I'm not going to get into a debate about corsets but the vast majority of the info out there is incorrect 1900's rubbish. Lucy, from bisonenrancher on youtube, is one of the best sources of reliable science based info out there for anyone interested. I used to wear a brace to help my scoliosis, my corset does the same thing. I specifically do core exercises (normally, not the last few years obviously with a fractured pelvis etc) to maintain my core strength. I also have huge lats from lifting- i used to deadlift over 240lbs. So I have experience with back strength, just not shoulder neutral strength.
skramamme · 6/9/2015
Also, my corset helps a lot with anxiety (you feel contained, physically wrapped) and it can even help with rectus distatsis or even worse- there are quite a few medical applications aside from helping with scoliosis.
Phoenix Hunter · 6/9/2015
my upper back posture used to be terrible and I have all sorts of neck issues that go along with that. I have found alot of benefit from doing exercises like Veena's lying superman exercises. where you lay belly down on the floor and lift your upper body. and doing cobra like that too. do cobra just working on the upper back then lift your hands off the floor and keep your upper back up only using your upper back mucsles and abdominals. those strengthened my upper back and help to pull my shoulders back. Also, I have really tight pecs, and shoulders. so I really focused on stretching my shoudlers and pecs. that combined with strengthening my upper back help pull my posture into correct alighment. its not perfect, but much better than what it was. also just being aware of it during the day helps alot. before I was just not aware that there was a problem so I would let my body sag. now I engage that part of my back and it sometimes just engages without me thinking about it . its starting to become automatic and more natural. now.....I need to work on my lower back! suck in my abs and tuck my pelvis. that, feels so unnatural!
Phoenix Hunter · 6/9/2015
skrammamme, I am a tight lacer as well. although not so much now. getting a corset custom made so I can wear it regularily. I've cinched down in my current corset but because its not made to my measurements I cant comfortably go any further. I dont wear it 24/7 . at the most I had worked up to about 40-50 hours a week. I also wear one for "emotional/security" reasons. but I also actively do some sort of core work almost daily without my corset on of course.
skramamme · 6/9/2015
Thanks Phoenix- I reckon some of it is bound to be tightness. I haven't had a massage in over 10+ years (I'm not very touchy-feely and just forget they're good for you) even when I was doing crossfit and during my surgeries- I'm sure 1 1/2 years on crutches probably screwed up things a bit too. I have really big lats and a naturally strong back but have always had a hard time building my shoulders (although my triceps always build up easily). I guess we all have a couple of areas that are slower to develop than others.
skramamme · 6/9/2015
Oh Hai fellow tightlacer! Hey :) I have a couple of mesh cs-411's from orchard corset and they're great, but my dream is a handmade one from contour corsets because she specialises in asymetrical designs. I also really like a cupped rib rather than a connical rib, like sugar kitty's corsets (she doesn't make them any more though). Madame Sher also has some stunners. But $400+ is a lot of dough. Cool, glad I'm not the only one here
AllysonKendal · 6/9/2015
My gut reaction to corsets has always been somewhat negative, and it has to do with a lot of reason... This post I saved a while ago kind of summed it up. (See attached) Now I've learned that my gut isn't always right and things aren't always as they seem, and what's good for one person isn't necessarily good for another... So I'm not trying to put anyone down. I also did admit I'm not really researched on the current state of corsets, I just find them to be like medieval torture devices and not sexy to me. But I also like the idea of taking back something that use to be a source of pain or oppression and totally "owning" it and letting it empower you. Live and let live. 💕
Phoenix Hunter · 6/9/2015
yes, that upper back has been very hard for me to develop. its the same muscles that are used to open your upper back when backbending. very hard to isolate. my pecs are probably the tightest muscles on my body. its crazy! yes, I'm sure crutches contribute to the front of your body leaning forward and all those front muscles are shortened and tight because of it. to open those chest muscles you stretch them and also strengthen the opposing back muscles. just keep working on it. do the conditioning exercises here and it will get better and better with time. i have winged scapula that are very hypermobile, it has been a struggle but I've seen lots of improvement with strenghthening.
Phoenix Hunter · 6/9/2015
I love the contour corsets! would love to get one of those one day too! :) corsets are not uncomfortable when you wear one made to your measurements. no fainting, nothing like that although it is something you gradually have to progress in. the ideal corset is one that fits your measurements perfectly when it is cinched down except the waist is smaller. so no compressing the hips or ribs really. just squishing the fat in your waistline. Im not saying its healthy or not. it is body modification much like tattooing or piercings or implants. these are not always the healthiest things for you. yes, it does weaken the core with long term wear. especially those that wear 24/7 for many years. I starved myself to weigh about 105 pounds once. my hair was falling out and my period stopped. my belly did not get very small. corseting for me is not really about trying to shrink my waist although that is a side effect. there is just a look that can achieved with a corset that can never be achieved with clean eating, exercise, and all that. i eat clean and exercise daily and I do honor my body. Im not trying to get down to a 15 inch waist with a corset although some people do that. I want cinch down 4 inches. maybe 6 inches in a few more years if I lose weight also. wearing a corset makes me feel good, much the same way wearing a push up bra makes others feel confident. okay, explanation over. :) I do agree that they are not tools to correct your posture unless you do have something like scoliosis. regular spines need to rely on their own strength for correction. scoliosis sometimes needs both bracing and self muscular regulation. and corsets will not permanently shrink your waist like some people think.
Phoenix Hunter · 6/9/2015
skramamme, my first was a cotton corset from orchard corsets but I cant find any off the shelf corsets that fit my measurements so I'm getting one made. I can wear some ready made ones but cant fully cinch down. the hips are always a problem when doing so. I got big hips! :) so right now I'm wearing the cotton corset just not fully closed. my ribs are very small and my hips big so I have a huge gap in the ribs. :(
skramamme · 6/9/2015
Phoenix- I have big ribs, so I'm lucky most OTR fit ok. I'm just not squishy which makes cinching harder. But I'm the same in that no matter how small I get I don't get a waist- my current waist s only 2" smaller than my underbust and, even when I was anorexic (I also had no period for 2 around years) I still never had a curvy torso, very straight up and down. I'm like 38/32/36... hardly hourglass. When people ask me if I have trouble breathing when I wear my corset I point out that a) my lungs aren't in my waist and b) pregnancy moves the internal organs around far more than corsets, so our internal organs are designed to move and shift. Also, corsets weren't a way of oppressing women, they developed from Stays which helped to support the very heavy weight of the clothes women wore back then, which put an enormous amount of stress on the back. They also helped to support the breasts as bras weren't invented yet. Tightlacing or cinching in the waist significantly didn't start until much later (the Victorian era IIRC) and again, corsets actually helped women with the weight of all those layers. Also, fainting rarely comes about as a result of corset wearing. Back in the day it was the done thing to be seen as fragile and it was a handy way to either gain attention from a beau or to avoid confrontation by having a ~fainting spell~. The move against corsets was started, in part, by manufacturing businesses who were trying to introduce the girdle, so there was a conflict of interest and those famous x-rays weren't particularly precise as even the Dr acknowledged that the women was wearing the corset much higher than she normally would. As for broken ribs and split livers, pish posh- it's all urban legends (as is the myth that you can have your floating ribs removed to get a smaller waist).
Lucca Valentine · 6/10/2015
Aesthetically based corsets are obvs each to their own and I totally get liking that look, and the way modern ones are now they have more give while still creating the shape. However, claiming they don't effect your breathing just because they're not necessarily directly compressing your lungs seems faulty....they body needs some give to move...(healthy/non distressed) breathing initiates in your diaphragm which is basically exactly where the corset is tightest and outside of that the organs need to be displaced to allow movement of the diaphragm which a rigid corset would hinder. As for the pregnancy thing...I've encountered many a-pregnant woman who was having difficulty breathing because the baby was all kinds of restricting her ability to breath. While I fully support anyone's right to do whatever they want as long as it's not hurting anyone, I do disagree with those postulations as being reasoning for why there are no ill effects from corseting. Even in progressive spinal cord injury treatment patients are prompted to move away from their abdominal bindings because it hinders their ability to build core strength. If you wear it for a short while and as an occasional reminder of posture I'm sure it's safe, especially with more modern fabric. But I'm sorry, it absolutely effects the ability to build core strength and breath optimally and healthfully. Buddha's image with a round belly to indicate a relaxed way and full way of breathing. I find it hard to believe that weight lifters wear belts to increase intraabdominal pressure but corsets have no effect. The tendon, or really more accurately the connective tissue that is an extension of the tendon to the diaphragm is attached to the first three lumbar vertebrae, which is exactly what a corset is restricting. Heels are just as much a "restrictive" symbol for women as corsets are, and are incredibly unhealthy as well, so I don't care about that part. Women should be able to do whatever the eff they want, social constructs or not, but to say there is no ill effect from wearing corsets seems erroneous. As erroneous as saying high heels are totally healthy. There are different levels of healthiness for each but none are ideal from a physical/physiological health stand point, although I don't know about mental health. The compression being comforting makes sense and is the case in a lot of anxiety disorders, autism, sensory integration issues, etc
skramamme · 6/10/2015
I was a powerlifter for quite a few years, so I know about using intra-abdominal pressure to help stabilise the core when engaging in heavy lifting As for diaphram constriction, it really depends on the type of corset. I prefer cupped rib styles, which literally only cinch in at the waist and cup both the ribcage and hips. They actually don't impede my normal breathing at all. Other people prefer to use more conical shaped corsets which can, over many years, change the shape of the floating ribs to a small degree but it isn't a lasting change as they revert back to their true shape after time. And they can reduce the ability to belly breathe, which is why it's not recommended to corset if you have a cold etc. But a lot of that comes down to research and responsible use of a corset. Personally, I use corsets for a variety of reasons, the *least* of them being aesthetics. And I never said that wearing a corset 24/7 was an ideal for anyone to aim for, I don't think it's a decision to be taken lightly and it *is* a form of body modification that requires a lot of information and due diligence to do safely. There's a lot of misinformation out there about corsets and I did a lot of research on before I ever even considered investing in one. Perhaps you could read up on some of the positives of corsetting (including the benefits of corsetting for things like anxiety, eating disorders, MtF transitioning and so on) instead of condemning the whole thing without actually understanding the benefits it can provide. Interestingly, corsets have actually helped me learn belly breathing because I can feel what it's supposed to feel like. They have also helped me with my bulimic tendencies and anxiety as well as improving my posture a lot in a short period of time (I was really surprised). It's also helped to teach my what it feels like to sit upright and actually worked both my abs and back muscles simply by sitting correctly- I tend to wear it primarily when using the computer because it helps to prevent me switching off my awareness and slouching. And when I take it off I notice I sit up more when driving to the point that I have to adjust my seat. I also find I can sit upright on things like backless benches without so much discomfort and slouching since using my corsets (that is, I am sitting more upright *without* wearing my corset) so somehow it's helping to make me aware of the sensation of proper posture and... activating? awakening? the muscles needed to do so. I'm not exactly sure what the mechanism is behind it, but that is the result, which is a good thing imho. If you have any interest in the experiences of those who practice waist training and tight lacing then I suggest checking out Lucy's Corsetry as she takes a very science based approach to things and is a pretty amazing person in general.
skramamme · 6/10/2015
And that's the last I am going to discuss the topic here- Lucy at Bishonenrancher is a much better source of information for anyone who is curious about corsets and the pro's and con's of responsible corset wearing, waist training and/or tightlacing (her piece on how corsets can help heal is great reading).
Phoenix Hunter · 6/10/2015
I've had way more damage and injury from poling than from my corset. poling has given me sprained wrist, sprained ankle, torn hamstring, dislocated ribs, pulled rhomboids, torn knee ligament, bruises, bleeding, cuts, scrapes, you name it. And thats with me being smart and careful with pole. I've never had any issues with breathing or anything from a corset. but there is a method to wearing them and some risk involved. I just dont think it is quite as terrible as one may think. Wearing one constantly will effect core strenghth. but that's alot of corset time to do that kind of damage and if you're like me, you probably work out everyday and do corework daily without your corset on. I have people tell me I dont respect myself because I pole dance and that is oppresive to women. People also tell me the same about wearing a corset: I am wearing something used to oppress women, or why dont you just lose weight, you dont love yourself if you do that. I would say both are risky and there is a smart way to things and a not so smart way. they are not for everybody. but no, I really dont have problems breathing with mine on but i also just dont slap on a cheap ill made corset and cinch it down as tight as it will go. it doesnt work that way.I have also found a corset to be helpful with belly breathing technique and have used it for singing. so I'm guessing the breathing thing can really depend on what style you wear and how you cinch it. on the otherhand, I have worn the modern flexible corsets and found it downright restricitve , uncomfortable, and even painful. so I really dont recommend the latex ones. a well made steel boned made for your body is much much more comfortable even though it doesnt sound like it. and yes, it is body modification. much like tattooing, piercing, implants, tongue forking, what have you.
AllysonKendal · 6/10/2015
I didn't mean to start anything if I did... Like I said live and let live, to each their own. It's not my thing, but I understand why some people are into it, just like any body modification! Just like pole isn't for some people. You guys seem really knowledgable on the subject so that's great... I'm really just fearful of these teens I see hurting themselves to look like a Kardashian. I think that's where my gut reaction against it comes from. I will say though that breathing during pregnancy was awful. It was probably the most uncomfortable part. I often felt like I was drowning or having a panic attack. It's hard to explain, but I was constantly gasping for air. That's not really relevant, just a fun little thing I thought I'd add. Joys of motherhood. But anyway, hope I'm not fanning any flames. You all are great. That is all.
Phoenix Hunter · 6/10/2015
Allyson, you are a very sweet person and I know you are not the kind of person to put anyone down. I have nothing but love for you
Lucca Valentine · 6/10/2015
I genuinely hope i didn't come off as "condemning" corseting and tried to make a point of mentioning 1. Do what you want, I have tattoos, gauged ears, and had many a piercing. All of which have risks and all of which have been fine 2. If not worn constantly it's likely fine 3. I don't agree with what people think about things that "oppress" women, so again, do what you want. Like Phoenix said, some people find pole dancing as oppressive to women and clearly we are all in the camp of not paying any mind to that thought process 4. I totally could see corseting having some psychological and emotional benefits So please don't think I'm "condemning" corseting. As acknowledged above it just is a form of body modification and does come with risks, mostly when wearing the corset constantly which it doesn't sound like you ladies do, but girls who get into waist training often don't educated themselves on that aspect of it so it's worth mentioning cuz who knows who will read this thread, and maybe it will prompt them to research further. I do stick by the breathing thing though, people who don't even wear corsets often have restricted/not optimal breathing their whole lives and don't know it. A style that allows room for the ribs but cinched at the waist constricts diaphragm expansion while allowing for more chest based breathing. Again, something that's more of a concern when corsets are worn constantly which, again, you ladies are educated on and don't do. Just wanted to point out that the possible benefits of corseting wer mentioned in my first post, just in case they were missed. Most of those points we actually agree on. Not trying to start trouble, just putting out some ideas. Most of the (recent) corset studies are done on SCI patients and done with participants who wear the corsets constantly so we genuinely don't have solid data (scientifically speaking) about corseting in healthy individuals one way or the other. Young girls are just getting super into crazy body mods without knowing the associated risks (eg the Kylie Jenner challenge where girls were trying to plump their lips via suction but would use glass bottles/shot glasses because they didn't research and ended up with enormous gashes in thee face)
Veena · 6/10/2015
Sorry for the delay in replying, I've been super busy with end of school parties and graduation. I was only offering my help, offering the solutions and knowledge I have of body mechanics and having dealt with my own core issues and knowing what has worked for me and others. As always, feel free to take of leave my suggestions.