SkylerWither started this discussion ·
So I noticed in some competitions here lately that many of the routines are choreographed by someone else. Like Marlo Fisken did one for Anastasia at Pole Art. How much does one think it costs to have such and do they do it did the amateur dancer or only the pros?
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It all depends on who you have do your choreography. I know quite a few who have worked with The Choreography House out in LA. I might check with them. Phoenix does some stuff too but I am not exactly sure what.
And I am going to get on my soapbox now and say how against this I am. There is one thing of getting feedback of your routine and something totally different in having an entire piece handed to you. Part of why I love pole is people telling their OWN story, not someone else's. I don't think this is fair nor "right" in competitions and it dives me insane. I though we were "judging" on the competitior, not on the ability of the competitor to dance like someone else.
I have no problem choreographing pole moves that is not the problem for me. If I was to hire someone to help me with a routine it would be for the floor. My last competition I was left in the dust there. I felt my lack of dance background showed. I see all this contemporary moves and dance that I have no clue and feel like an idiot doing. Of I was to go to someone, it would be help not create. Someone to say, try this here, or try that there. Not for someone to create a complete routine for me. I see it no different than gymnasts having their routines tweaked by their coaches and such. I do agree to should be mostly done by you, but to have a professional input is helpful
Charley ·
As a competitor: I've personally worked with Phoenix, Kelly and Leigh Ann on various pieces and I loved them. I also provide choreography for Claire Beer and my students. Prices range from $150-50/hr. It depends on how you want to work and their availability. I skyped with Leigh Ann and Phoenix and liked the instant feedback. I do phone convos with Kelly and like that too because I look and see what she's saying. The price very much depends on what you need and what you already have. I always come up with my own stuff then get tweaking and combo advice plus help with stage presence, fluidity and trouble shooting timing and intro/outros and costume. I never compete without a trainer, I get too much additional training, inspiration and help with problem moves, combos, etc. that helps me overall. As a choreographer: Now, for some people I do provide the entire piece because some are great performers but not great at coming up with things on their own. I have 2 students I work with for shows. 1 is very good at performing and being on stage but not great with creativity or putting it together, I do every nuance for her and she owns it like no other because I only give her what fits her, the other will do privates to work out a couple things but already has the whole thing in her head. They are just different people with different talents. Giving someone an idea to work with is to me is as valid as giving someone a combo. Most people will take your ideas that had for them because you know them and make it theirs anyway. I love being the idea person. I can be creative in a whole new way with a body that can do things mine can't. It's like playing Barbie. :)
Veena ·
When it comes to competition it's common in the dance world to have someone else choreograph for you. I don't see there being anything wrong with it. I think choreographers are important, I think it would be an amazing job! I have so many ideas in my head and Iike Charley mentioned, I feel I could be creative with things I couldn't physically do! lol When I have worked with pole dancers I always try to use their ideas. I just blend things and make sure the flow is working. Offer suggestions for more unique moves or transitions. As far as cost, I don't know. I've only done it a few times for free.
My next question then, is do you just contact the professional you are interested in working with? Guess in a way I am just afraid of them being like "Who the heck are you?"
I don't think I see any problem with this either. Even if there's a choregrapher with an idea and a story, the performer will still interpret it in their own particular way and add their own personal touch to it. If the same choreographer gave the same idea and story to a different dancer the outcome would also be different, I'm sure. So in my opinion, if this is wrong, then a play at the theather is equally wrong unless it's not the directors playing all the roles in it as well.
I guess when pole started out it was just the dancer involved........ similar to modern music. To me any of the current "stars" are just people with good voices and they come and go. It is uncommon to find the likes of someone like Pink who writes her own music these days. I honestly think it makes an unfair competition. It is just how I feel ..... how can we name someone a champion when they cannot put 2 moves together to save their lives? Choreographing a production or show is something very different.
Charley ·
I understand what you are saying chemmie. It's the difference between an artist and an athlete. The difference between a singer and a song writer. I love having a choreographer to help bring my vision alive. I will also say the downside for me, and Kelly and I have had this conversation, is that I don't trust myself enough. I really rely on getting a thumbs up from someone when I don't have to. I tend to start over analyzing everything and stop putting myself into it because I want perfection. So, I'd say part of Kelly's job in woking with me is helping me trust my own ideas and decisions, which she is a billion percent supportive of. For what it's worth all 3 trainers I've worked with have all sat down and said what do you have? Kelly this last time gave me the option of having her put together combos for me or I could do it, I ended up using a mix because my pole wasn't tall enough to safely run through the combos. All of the things she gave me were based on a list of videos I sent her. I did one Skype with Phoenix and it was more about taking what I had a cleaning up the lines and feet. When I worked with Leigh Ann it was about conveying the character through my body so we did a ton of acting/dance exercises. I think newer dancers and those without a dance background benefit huge from having a coach. I'd say every time I've worked with someone it's been more coaching than anything. It's paying someone with a broader knowledge base to bring it all together with me. For those whom I do every step for, typically they are newer dancers that don't have a lot of pole knowledge. Usually proling under a couple of years. I can say too. That they all come back with their own themes and ideas once they get through the process of putting a piece together. Kelly and Leigh Ann have been so instrumental in my dancing and teaching. They've given me so much beyond this move then that one. They've both helped me understand my body better and being able to work with them I've come up with my own methods of choreography that I wouldn't have otherwise explored. I would work them outside of competition but its so expensive that I can really only justify it during those times. I'd also like to think through working with a few of my girls I've done the same thing.? I do understand though chemmie, you want to see the artists creativity and have it be their vision, not a winning piece from someone else's head. I think most of the time we are seeing the artist and her vision she just had help. I know for I've always had control over my vision but I've gotten help with the areas I questioned.
I think it's awsome and admirable if someone can manage everything on their own. But I don't think that a good dancer will just become like a "shell" only because they get a piece choreographed. Because if they are that unable to create their own interpretation and style out of that choreography, then I doubt that they will place in those competitions at all. I'm sure any serious dancer will want to be "a part of it" in any case. And also, if requiering that the performer "owns" the whole artistic part of the routine, then I wonder if we could really stop here. Because what about the music? It's half (or something...) of the whole thing and could be considered to be apart of the choreography. That since it will set a lot of the tone and emotions of the performance and the dancer will adapt their expressions and movements according to it. Then by using someone's song they get quite a few things delivered "for free". So if following the logic, they should probably have to compose the song on their own as well. I guess my personal opinion is that by the end of the day it is about delivering the performance that is the most captivating (whatever that means), no matter if the performer composed the song or not, made up all the combos themselves or were taught them, made their own choreo or paid someone to help out :).
There is a line between "helping out" and handing over a complete piece to someone. I have no issues with the former, I do with the latter. We all have had a helping hand, whether it be a friend or a husband or your trainer or whoever. Phoenix, Felix, Jenyne, Alethea, Karol, Marlo, David, Oona, Leigh Ann, AnneMarie, etc....when we hear those names we can pinpoint their style. THAT is what makes them champions. Charley, with you and Claire, I know the two of you had a very close relationship and quite honestly I did not see *you* when she performed. That to me is the difference between a *trainer* and a *choreographer*. I have been having a really hard time trying to express what I am trying to get out and have retyped a section several times and it is still not quite there. It is kind of like going to a Fosse production, it does not matter who the dancers are or what city you see it in, it is all going to be relatively the same. You may have some performers that stand out but in the end we remember the choreographer, not the dancer. I don't want to watch a bunch of Marlo puppets because all I will see is Marlo. And while the dancer may execute every move superbly I, in my heart, would not see that person as a *champion*.
And yet another reason why I love you so much Charley. You and I have gotten into some very intense and intelligent conversations about pole and where things are going and things we do and don't like and in the end we end up having drinks with no hard feelings. I love that we share this passion for pole and have a deep respect for each other and that alone surpasses any differences we may have.
Veena ·
Chem, I do agree (from the few comp vids David showed me) that many dancers no longer have their own style! But, I guess that's what happens when something becomes a bit more mainstream. I have a huge love for choreography so I can see why it would be exciting to take someone who can do more than yourself and create! However, I would love for pole dancers to realize that there is sooooo much more to pole then comps and "fame". It has gotten better than it was, when everyone and their grandma was trying to aspire to become a "pole star" . LOL My favorite pole dancers to watch are ones who dance from the heart!! I see Pro/Elite Pole and Amateur pole, the lines are still a little blurry but I hope everyone will start to see that Pro doesn't have to be the final goal!!
Angie La ·
Look up Heidi Coker. She lives in GA and is just a simple lady who has become very busy. She is really creative and strong. I also see how there's a bit of cookie cutter themes but hen there are people like Danielle Romano who has changed that pole dance is supposed to be all about the exotic sexy image, into a role that can be ugly and emotive in a different way.
Well, like I said, I am not looking for a complete piece but more of a helping hand in what I created. I have base line routines all written in my book, but I want to add more to them. That where I think a choreographer would be helpful. Do I want to dance just like that person, no. I have been workshops and classes with famous polers, but I do not pole like they do, nor do I try to cause I am me and they are them.... I just figured with my lack of dance background that someone with a stronger background would be helpful.
I wouldn't think that getting help with choreography is a problem. To me, creating choreography is a completely separate skill from performing. Similar to the difference in musical composition and musical performance. I used to play piano "competitively" through festivals, syllabus, etc. Classical piano is not about creating your own music, its about interpreting music and skillfully rendering it. In other forms of dance, competition pieces are commonly choreographed by people other than the performer, and in classical dance like ballet, choreography still exists from a long long time ago, still being performed and interpreted by dancers today. Finding the total package of performer and good choreographer is tough, because good choreography is much more difficult and rare than most people think. It't not as easy as stringing together moves and setting those moves to counts/music. I know it's possible to get feedback about a video from WeFly (Rebecca Star, Michelle Stanek, Tracee Kafer, Natasha Wang, and Steven Retchless). Not sure how the process exactly works, but you can find out from their website. http://www.weflypole.com/
Charley ·
@Chemmie, I just adore you and I love th fact we can discuss these things and grow. With Claire, most of her combos and her floor work were my ideas and she had to learn moves and holds very quickly and she blew my freaking mind! I loved doing a piece for her because its not how I dance at all. We are working on something right now that is super exciting, for me, anyway. She's still really new to pole and its easy to forget that when she's sooo strong. I'd say 25% of the routine you saw had stuff that she had to learn in under a month, smooth it out and make it flow. She has a very natural grace on the pole making her a dreamto work with. She's also very charismatic on stage. We've made a good team because the stuff I'm bad at she's a beast at the stuff she's bad at, I'm good at. She doesn't have a big pole vocabulary yet because its been so little time on the pole but she's quickly learning new things and learning how to put them together. She's growing exponentially. Her concept of that piece was very challenging to work with but she pulled it off so beautifully. I get ideas for her a lot and will call her and be like "this would be a cool idea, what do you think?" Together we make it happen. My friend Kathleen steps in at the end and goes over stage stuff with her as Kat does for me as well. To the op. I'd Facebook whomever you want to work with they might Skype. I highly recommend Phienix especially if its just tweaks you need. She's very affordable and freaking priceless to work with. I don't think everyone needs a coach or trainer but I believe everyone has someone in their life that fills that role. My Kat and I are always coming up with ideas for each other and playing with them. Again it's more like I think you should dance to this song. It could be this or that. Never here's your moves and 8 count and that's what chemmie is saying. Part of the awesome part of pole is that you can move in a non standard way. There is not choreography dating back a thousand years. I also agree with what's been said about artist interpretation. I teach a lot of Choreo and everyone does it differently. Which I love. I actually teach my comp routine (portions) to my upper level girls so I can see it on different bodies and I get inspired and make changes so stores based on what I see. It's innovation vs recreation. Chemmies just sayi h shed rather see a piece that is wholly the artist even if they worked with a coach vs a recreated winning piece that has no significance to the artist. Right?
Exactly. Also for someone who is looking for dance I have heard that Kelly Yvonne (did I spell that right?) Is amazing to work with.
Charley ·
Kelly is amazing! I will warn she's really busy! She coaches everyone and their sister so if you have a tough timeline make sure you tell her and have everything ready to send, song, vids, etc. if you choose her you will not be disappointed. I think Kelly is the busiest woman in pole! I adore her and highly recommend her. Michelle stanek whom I've not worked with does Skype too. I've heard incredible things about everyone at B&P.
phedre ·
I do choreo, but my choreo abilities are far beyond my pole abilities. I don't charge people I know are members of studio veena.
