Beginners trying advanced moves before they're ready

newschik started this discussion · 5/26/2015

Pole should be all about safety. That being said, I am seeing too many polers who don't have the foundation basics mastered and are trying to get into very advanced moves. Example, last night in a level two class, a student new cleared to be in the class demonstrated that she did not know how to place her legs in order to hang without her hands on the pole (invert crucifix). OMG! Lately, I'm seeing a proliferation of girls trying advanced moves before they should. They want Eros before they have brass monkey...Aysha without being able to caterpillars etc. In addition to the obvious insurance concerns, it's flippin' dangerous! This site does a GREAT JOB of categorizing moves and what you should know how to do before attempting them. But more and more, something that someone sees on YouTube or Instagram becomes their obsession. No one I know has been injured to date, but the anecdotal stories are out there. Does anyone else encounter this in their studios? How do you communicate to someone that they're just not ready for a move when THEY think they are? Does your studio test for levels?

13 replies

Phoenix Hunter · 5/26/2015
I pretty much quit going to my studio because of this. it may work for some people but it doesnt work for me. I felt weird working on ayeshas when I couldnt do a caterpillar climb. yes, why would you teach someone split grip ayesha when they cant even do an extended butterfly. why teach Marion Amber when you cant even ayesha. why shoulder mount straight into superman when you can barely shoulder mount. it just wasnt working for me. everybody else was having a good time doing shit they had no business doing. me voicing concerns was not gonna change the structure of the class. sadly, I'm the squeaky wheel so I just had to take myself out of the situation. my studio doesnt test for levels and I think that may also be a problem. I mean, maybe not test them but confirm that they have a certain level of skill. doesnt have to be super strict, but just a general set of skills. most people dont understand that there is a progression of tricks that just makes sense. they just dont know. As for instructors who dont teach this way. I'm not sure what their reasoning is. not at all. also I think students want to think they are the exception. the rules of physics and biology dont apply to them. very rarely you will sometimes see people who naturally are better at some advanced tricks and they cant get some of the basics. I know some girls who could safely shoulder mount in the first couple of months of poling. they are strong and able to do that, those moves came natural to them. but then they cant do a jasmine on their non-dominant leg. weird. but yes, there is definitely a progression to things for a reason. as for the girl who couldnt hold a crucifix. maybe she was okay with everything else required except that? I dunno. sometimes people are closer to the next level except one thing may be holding them back. then, it should be a case by case judgement on whether to move them to the next level or not.
joiceiamara · 5/26/2015
I have mixed feelings about that. My studio also doesn't test for levels. As a matter of fact, we don't have differentiation of levels. Advanced girls trains with the beginners. This has a good and a bad side for me, because this way we can help each other but at the same time, beginners can feel tempted to try some things they are not ready yet. However, my instructor is quite good to see abilities on each one, and she teaches everyone in a different way. For instance, I am going from beginner to intermediate but I am already capable of doing the advanced teddy. The same thing doesn't happens with a girl who is in the same level as I, but she can make aerial inverts and I am still struggling with the basic invert. Of course that in my studio beginners doesn't do ayesha's or eros (no one does that in my studio except my instructor), but sometimes my instructor leads us to try some tricks out of our levels if she thinks we are capable of by observing our progress. Sometimes I feel that maybe some of us are doing things we are not ready yet, but as far as I can tell, we don't have actually safety issues in my studio. I just think that my instructor does a fantastic job teaching us!!!
Tigerschic041721 · 5/26/2015
As a student, I too stopped attending several studios for this lack of proper progression. The classes were too random so nothing ever lead to something else. The tricks were cool in theory but you have to have the in between stuff down to do it safely and none of that was ever touched on - same here when voicing concerns it was brushed off. Some of the girls would end up getting it by throwing their weight around or trying to awkwardly spot each other but that's just not safe in my eyes - assistance should be coming from the instructor even if that means taking a step back to the necessary in between moves once you see the majority needs to master that first. As an instructor, I am glad our studio switched over to a level progession where each move builds on something that was already learned. With that said, I get a TON of girls who have the "I'm the exception" mindset. Every now and then one is the exception and that's cool but the majority are not. Even if a somewhat experienced poler is coming from another studio, I think the progressions/levels/pre-reqs should be respected at the new studio because each and every one is different. At least try scheduling a time to evaluate what's been previously learned to be placed in the correct class. Doing something that our bodies are truely not prepared for puts everyone at risk (students, instructor, & studio).
RaspberryAlice · 5/26/2015
Its surely something I DON'T miss from my studio years. I hated watching girls throw themselves into tricks just to be the "alpha poler". It's always that one girl...ugh! Back when I first started pole, I was the only other girl besides another girl who had been going for a few months prior. I managed to hold my own but looking back I was very much rushed to keep up. So one day, the advanced girl was learning the butterfly and my teacher was like "oh you can invert ok, let's try the butterfly too!". So she spots me a few of them, basically HOLDING me into place. Well, she tells me to practice that on my own and goes back to the advanced girl. Me, not knowing any better, went up...inverted...got into position....AND BAM! Face first onto hardwood floor. Knocked the wind out of me but was so quiet that the teacher didn't even know. I was scared of ALL invert tricks from that point forward. I will say my teacher was still a new teacher then. She should have known better and I found it hard to trust her judgement on my progress. The rest of my studio experience there was like Tigerschic and Phoenix, all tricks with little framework. Just pushing us up levels to make room for more new people. I don't like it and don't miss it at all.
skramamme · 5/26/2015
I haven't gone to a studio yet, all my experience comes from working in the industry when I was younger and I really haven't worked properly for over 12 years, so I am well out of practice. And when I was working in clubs there weren't many girls who did full on tricks (those that did were ex gymnasts etc) so what I did learn was all by myself and I am sure my form is terrible as a result. That said, these days I find myself doing things I probably shouldn't when I'm dancing around on the pole at home because I feel like I *should* be able to pull them off- it's hard realising my body can't do the moves I have always taken for granted. I am hoping to start training at a studio near me in a couple of months and I really hope they are switched on and have their lesson plans based on safe and structured progression rather than trying to butter up the students by allowing them to move forward faster than they should. And I do think that's what a lot of it is about- trying to make the students feel special by allowing them to take on moves that they really aren't ready for.
BagLady · 5/27/2015
I first learned working in clubs as well and...wow..when i look back on the stuff many would do..,and way high up on the air...,and DRUNK.,oh lord. Joining sv a year ago really helped me gain perspective and while im still tempted to 'just try' some novel move after seeing it i feel like i can assess what is in reach and what is not (ahh shoulder mounts/dismounts...when will u be mine,..)
skramamme · 5/27/2015
haha, yes, I saw some pretty reckless things over the years, thankfully I only ever saw one bad accident and it was the fault of the club, not the girl; The club had a flying fox type contraption that broke as she was riding on it to the stage and she landed on her feet wearing stripper heels :( She broke her ankle really badly and had to fight tooth and nail to get any compensation because we're viewed as sub contractors and therefore not covered by workers comp. But, because the flying fox broke pretty much every health and safety law she won some sort of payout, but AFAIK she was never able to dance again. And she was an ex ballet dancer and gymnast, so it was a huge part of her life outside of the clubs. I remember seeing her fall and just thinking "oh shit" while some douche-canoe turned to his mate and said "you can see her snatch!" as she lay on the floor. The management didn't even want to call an ambulance at first until they realised she was really hurt. Happy to take the house fee but not look after us when shit gets real, you know? Of course, I saw some amazing things too- there was one woman who was doing a feature show and the music was pumping and the crowd was cheering as she strutted up to the stage stairs. Well, she didn't see the little lip at the edge and she *full on* tripped onto the stage. She proceeded to turn it into this clever little shoulder roll and just killed it. I think only me and a couple of other girls even noticed, she was so cool calm and collected. I remember thinking if that had been me IDK what I would have done, but I doubt I would have handled it with so much style (unless running away crying is considered stylish? lol). I also saw my first ever suicide drop at work and was just amazed, it was such a great show (yet another gal who had a gymnastics background). IDK if they're actually called suicide drops but it's when you're up high and inverted, facing the pole, and then you loosen the leg's grip and drop down/free fall then stop at the last second. It looks amazing, athletic and terrifying all at the same time... I love the idea but don't know if I could ever have the courage to try that particular move haha And I definitely try to take it (reasonably) easy at home, I'm just having to learn that my body doesn't have the strength that it used to, and that expecting to be able to do what it could 12 years ago is unrealistic and potentially dangerous. Ahh well, more strength exercises ;)
kittyface · 5/27/2015
Oh, this is especially bad in showclub-style strip clubs. The desire to race ahead of where you really should be is already there in a studio setting, but when you're a dancer in a strip club who can't do certain tricks, but you see the girls who CAN do those tricks getting more attention and better stage tips than you are because those tricks make them look more impressive on the pole - it makes you want to try EVERYTHING NOW, because you want to do it anyways but you also need the money, goddammit. This is the urge that led me to try the Jade split when I had absolutely no business doing so - I did not have the flexibility and I barely had an aerial invert, but I saw other dancers doing it and figured I would go for it. Thank god I found Aerial Amy's Jade tutorial and started taking classes, or else I fear what could have happened to me (and my ribs). I try to be much more careful these days, and the studio I go to is good about providing a progression of tricks and skill levels, so that's definitely helped me be much safer and stay within my skill level. The things I see other girls at the club do sometimes, though... Especially the Jade. I've seen some truly awful Jades from women who have no business trying it yet, and I really wonder if they're going to break a rib soon. The other thing I see happening all the time is kicking into inverted tricks that they probably don't have the strength for yet, as well as bad body placement in twisted grip. And yes, drunk poling. Taking shots to get over fear of handsprings = worst idea ever, but I've heard girls say they did it.
tblue41945 · 5/27/2015
While we don't have formal level tests, my teacher is very good about evaluating each student's skill and ability before teaching tricks and she does a great job offering options and variations so no one feels left out in the process.
mariebee · 5/27/2015
We were just talking about this at the studio I go to. We have had to explain to a LOT of people how and why our classes/levels are structured the way they are (Including a person who wanted to become an Instructor after recently moving to the area.) Here is an excerpt from an email we sent out to a potential student who wanted to start off in the advanced classes, "The short answer to your question is for SAFETY and to learn proper form and technique. Our studio's classes are structured more like gymnastics in which we teach our levels in progression, both to build strength and to reinforce the proper body alignment as well as foot and hand positions. This starts all of our students learning with safer habits, both for the aesthetics, as well as strength training."
firebird · 6/1/2015
going back to newschik's original question, I have a question back for u: are u asking about this dynamic in other studios as an instructor for tips on how to deal with this situation ? or just asking for curiosity's sake? because I have answers on all kinds of levels for u about this, for both possible motivations behind ur question, based on what I do as an instructor, my opinions/reactions as a student, what the postion is at the studio where I teach, and what *actually* happens in practice... the latter of which I'll tell you boils down to the fact that this business -- like almost any other -- is a people business after all... people on both ends of the teacher-student equation, each with their motives/goals, & their respective personalities and styles of relating to people... just as one VERY micro example: as an instructor, when I've had the occasional overly-ambitious student impatiently wanting stuff they're not ready for, honestly there are typically just 2 types of students I'be seen tend to go there -- (a) the ones who know better (so they think) & (b) the ones who KNOW they really don't know any better at all. My response to the (b) types of these students is usually a very grave (almost severe) but brief explanation about all the strength or whatever skills are required to do move X and the bad consequences of not having that but attempting said move anyway, beyond just mere failure & frustration (injury, etc)... that usually has been enough for eyes to open wide with fear and then glaze over and then that one is squashed, moving on... the (a) types I find more difficult and frustrating, bc now they know more, almost too much but no where near enough at the same time... As I've heard said, "enough to do damage" -- or at least potentially to themselves mostly. These students tend to have more experience and really do have a better understanding of what it takes to conquer certain moves in pole, but not necessarily a COMPLETE understanding. Yet they tend to be the ones who are more stubborn and difficult to get "back on the right track". But I'm a bit of a meanie and the "strict mama" in me comes out and says: "ok let me see your caterpillar -- both sides -- at least 3 in a row... needs to be rock solid, no slippling, no prompting from me (meaning U GOT this)... after that I want to see the caterpillar CLIMB, same deal both sides, at least 3 climbs, etc... THEN I want to see little D, and then big D, & them I can maybe start getting you into that Ayesha..." ayayay, they also need to give me a solid shoulder stand with legs straight up (so I know they can control their core), etc... yes meanie, I know... but usually doesn't take much to pretty much squash the swagger and get us to get real and on the same page of what stuff is gonna take to achieve... that said, I have also had even MORE stubborn students than THAT who I have either handled by trying to get them excited about another (possibly related or complementary, but not necessarily) totally DIFFERENT move that is more appropriate for their level and they are more likely to succeed with (the old bait&switch I guess), or by simply telling them straight up I won't be that instructor taking them there until I've seen the right skill set demonstrated -- and I've seen these students either just go home and take this stuff on themselves or recruit the help of another more willing instfinda (who either might just not care or know better & often eventually find out the issue of why this person is bypassing previous instructors...) AYAYAY there are really so many things at play in this situation. As I mentioned earlier, my studio has it's own declared approach, based on a certain progression from clearly-defined levels (using PSO level classifications) with which every class is labeled in the class title to hopefully minimize confusion but also help set proper expectations (on behalf of both students and instructors), and also that instructors are strictly expected to stick to ("teach the level assigned to the class! not above, not below!" as studio owner would say)... NOW in practice, different things manifest... based on the dynamics between the specific student and teacher, the class as a whole, etc... most of the time levels are prob well adhered to, others might go up or down... and I really mean "or" -- I have definitely had to dial a class way back for some or all of students present based on what I'm seeing vs what the game plan theoretically was... or even surprisingly went WAY further than what was on the agenda... I also had a sad experience of a student having a frightening fall in learning Ayesha when she dotted all i's & crossed all t's of preparation and even pulled off masterfully with me spotting... but even THEN her head wasn't all there and ready, whammo... horrifying... so scary... think I been surprised by the opposite type of situation happening, but really only about 2x max... so I tend to err on the side of caution... ok so if u made it to then end of this whole long dissertation, then in a nutshell there's just no easy answer to what to do about this phenomenon to control every time ("test" in place or not)... as a student, just try to not let the insistence of others bother you: that's their journey, enjoy your own... and in your own pole story, hang onto that more conservative and precautionary penchant that assures your sense of safety, no matter what situation you're in while learning...
newschik · 6/2/2015
Hi Firebird: My initial question really encompassed both the "what are other studios doing" and the "what do you guys do when this happens" query. I don't think you're being a "meanie" by asking someone to demonstrate their competence. Actually, I personally am fine with that tactic. It's like tough love with a kid. But some studio owners I have encountered, in an effort to retain a student, allow the student to take classes she's not ready for, and that makes me crazy. At that point, I'm undermined and can't do tough love because that girl is in the class because of the owner saying it's ok. In my world, it's not, but I'm just the instructor. Sometimes it feels like I'm herding cats. I don't like classes with large differences in abilities. I know others feel differently, but I am concerned about injury as girls see others (just for an example) inverting and think they, too, can do that. I guess the bottom line is that unless policy come from the top and is enforced, instructors like me, will face uncomfortable situations.
litlbit · 6/3/2015
I have a strict policy regarding the proper progression. When I get women that have been poling from another state/city that want to for example drop in for an open pole, they are told that their skills will be assessed and they need to tell us points of contact that are needed before they can pole (We have an instructor in ALL open poles to make sure everyone is doing things correctly, and to assist them/spot). The same goes for students that join classes on a regular basis. When they start to move up, they are assessed for their ability, are they solid, are they performing the move correctly, have they learned how to safely exit. This is my BUTT, and safety is always FIRST! When we start a new "Intro" series, they are told on the first day that they will do things according to our curriculum, not what they've seen on YouTube or fb, NO EXCEPTIONS! again this is my BUTT! They are also informed that the consequences of not following policy will get them booted out (depending on the severity of violation, some are restricted or have to go back to basics). I also let them know that it is not only their safety we are concerned about, but the safety of our instructors, and anyone who feels they can't comply with our policy is free to leave. I have had only 5 people in 4 1/2 years walk out because they felt I was holding them back. Having said that, when someone is working hard, getting their practices in, attending regularly, and are excelling, I test them to see which level would be more appropriate, and if they are bumped up, I make sure they have the skills to keep up (I work with them during open pole to fill in what could be gaps if they skip a level). What it all boils down to for me is SAFETY, not MONEY! I have to look out for students and staff, and I have sustained an excellent reputation for this.