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Online Voting
I want to throw some thoughts out there.
Yesterday, and again this morning, it was quite obvious that votes suddenly escalated in all 3 categories over a very short period of time. Maybe I’m wrong but I don’t think this is how Wendy and Anna wanted this to be decided since they obviously put some methods in place to prevent this.
Does anyone else feel we are belittling our field by turning a competition into a popularity contest?
Does anyone else feel it insults the hard work of those contestants who qualified for a competition when someone gets in because they had more friends voting for them?
Would YOU be comfortable competing on stage next to these women who worked so hard if you weren’t in the same skill level as the rest of them?
How would you feel as a contestant at this competition if the winner was chosen based on audience cheering or text messaging or even some system of audience voting like they do on some of the shows? Wouldn’t you be insulted if Suzie Smith won because Suzie had more friends in the audience than you did?
How would we feel as a pole community if that were the method of choosing a winner?
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54 Replies
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I witnessed something very similar to this a few months back when a friend of mines daughter made it model finals.
There were 18 girls…..The general public was encouraged to vote online for their selections.
However, I who only voted once-watched the other girls-votes jump up by thousands within hours.
I don’t know if it is possible to have some sort of program speed vote like that but I still found it bordering on "cheating" when it started to become a popularity contest as opposed to the girls being judged based on themselves.
Now, granted modeling is not the same as poling, but the people voting have the same intent.
People should be judged by their presentation not by how many people they know on the internet or have access to some bot type program that will speed their votes past their competitors.I am off to watch the 3 videos as I didn’t even know they were up yet…………..
reenie
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I agree that something is amiss here. One of the videos is from a girl in Connecticut. Why is she a finalist for West Coast? Second, she applied for the East Coast competition and didn’t get in. I thought that the rules stated you could only apply for one competition.
And yes, the video should be 2-3 minutes, but she’s not the only offender. Why have rules when they don’t apply to everyone?
And I do see posts from people stating that they will vote for their favorite girl on every different computer that they can find, which is unfair, and totally cheapens the whole competition. I am quite dissappointed in this whole thing. https://www.studioveena.com/img/smilies/icon_e_sad.gif -
I want to be clear that this is not questioning the ethics of the USPDF and is not intended to be a controversy about how the competition is run.
Not everyone will agree with every organization or event but the USPDF has pretty well established itself as a reputable and respected one within the competition circuit.
I’m asked questions of the community itself…what WE are doing.
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There are a lot of pole comps that rely on online voting – pole superstar and IPDFA both do/did. I think the objective of online voting is to get the Community to choose who is the best dancer. I think judges get a lot of flack unfairly by those who don’t get in and their friends/supporters that some organizations chose not to be the bad guy.
There are more than 12 great pole dancers, there are more than 50 great pole dancers! I can’t imagine what it’s like to have the pressure of choosing competitors. I have so much respect for judges and comp organizers.
I think online voting is good if everyone votes fairly and for the person they honestly feel is the best and don’t let bias get in the way. It’s important to vote once and vote fairly – if we all did this then we as a community would have a voice https://www.studioveena.com/img/smilies/icon_e_smile.gif
BTW – please vote for polefit in our popularity contest https://www.studioveena.com/img/smilies/icon_lol.gif https://www.studioveena.com/img/smilies/icon_lol.gif https://www.studioveena.com/img/smilies/icon_lol.gif
http://wdiv.cityvoter.com/polefit-revolution/biz/573166 -
Hi everyone, I don’t want to cause any problems here, but it’s making me really depressed that everywhere I look people are picking on me and only me. It’s like the story of my life. About my video length, I got a new camera, and when I upload it to Windows Movie Maker, it wont play or work, so I couldn’t edit it. Only judge me on the first 3 min then, thats what I figured USPDF would do, because I was told they don’t watch past 3 minutes! Plus I’ve seen MANY other videos that were accepted into competitions that were way over time limits. Plus I wasn’t planning on entering, but I was convinced by my family last minute to enter, just for the hell of it. There is nothing in the rules saying you cannot enter both, plus I’m apparently not verry popular because everyone seems to be against me. I’m sorry I entered and I’m from Connecticut, but in the EMW competition, on the West Coast there were contestants who lived on the East coast too, which made me think it was ok.
I’m sorry you all don’t think I’m good enough to be a contestant, and that I can’t keep up with the others, that really hurts, because I work my ASS off learning pole, I’ve never had a teacher, I had to learn trial and error alone. I practice almost every day, plus I’m tall and not super skinny I’m actually over weight, which makes me have to work really hard. I don’t know what video USPDF would have picked if there was no voting! And I didn’t make the rules! All I know is I work very hard and don’t see why people have to say I don’t deserve it. Soooooo many times I have lost at things, and I think I deserve a chance to compete, and give it my all just as much as anyone else does, and think it’s unfair that everyone is saying I don’t deserve to be in. :*( I thought we were all supposed to cheer each other on and support each other, not say hurtfull things. I feel like crap now.
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None of my comments were directed at you or about you hun! i think you did great and I have seen others go way over time limits – so don’t worry about that – it happens, movie maker sucks!
I do think it’s good that the community gets to speak their mind as long as we all do it fairly https://www.studioveena.com/img/smilies/icon_e_biggrin.gif
I am proud of everyone!
AND…I thought regionals were just national qualifiers so it didn’t matter which coast you signed up for – there’s a west coast girl in the East Coast comp – I don’t think it matters.
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Raquelle Star…why would you say that "everyone is picking on you" or that anyone "doesn’t think you’re good enough to get in"?
You said we "all" don’t think you’re good enough and I think that’s a pretty unfair accusation to make.
If you read my comment I started with:
votes suddenly escalated in all 3 categories over a very short period of time
Note that I said "all 3" and I did not say any one of the 3 competitors didn’t deserve it. What I don’t care for is turning this into a popularity contest. I’m certain EVERYONE who has entered has put many hard long hours into their training and no one person deserves it more than any other for that reason, but because they are simply performing better than others.
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Empy I can see where your coming from with this. I think when it becomes a ‘let the public decide’, it naturally becomes a popularity contest. Ive experienced that when I would run for things like student council in school. If you werent the popular one, then you were out. But then again think about the American Idol or Americas Got Talent, they are both highly rated shows that rely on viewer vote. But from the things ive heard, its not really a mass vote (I read somewhere that on AI, they will restrict calls from those voting where the person is from). I do like the idea that they gave the pole world a voice on who should get into USPDF.
As for voting where you can, I look at it this way ‘if I was her entering, wouldnt I want people to help me as much as they could to get me in’. I always think as much as I help others, it will come back to me one day. If you were the one waiting to be picked, wouldnt you want your friends to help you out in every way they could? As much as I wanted to help RaquelleStar get in by attacking every computer at the dealer to get in a vote, I didnt. Quite honestly, I got slammed with work and really didnt have alot time to tell my coworkers about the USPDF vote.
As for the timing rule, there are alot of submission vids that went passed the mark – not with USPDF but also EMW too. They are only looking at the time frame they ask for, they could care less what you do after 3:00 mark.
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I want to step in a play the devil’s advocate here.
Excluding of course the situation where someone cheats the system and gets masses of votes by repeatedly voting for themself from different IPs or something… doesn’t the fact that hundreds of people are willing to vote multiple times imply that these people think whoever they vote for is good enough to get in?
Of course some people are likely to support their real life friends, over people they have never met, even if the other is more talented. Also, some people are likely to support the underdog, assuming that the shining stars will be okay, and don’t need their votes. Neither of these are "proper" reasons if you think the only valid reason to vote is based on skill. But I think they are good enough reasons.
We are pole DANCERS therefore our personalities, our stage presence, our costumes, our music, our appearance – they ALL matter, as do our routines, moves, tricks, technique and other things.
It’s not about who can hold onto the pole the longest, or can climb highest. It’s about who entertains and impresses us the most, and who we like watching the most.
If we were trying to see who could lift 40kg the most times, sure, you could say a popularity vote was cheating. But when you are picking the best performer, popularity is already intertwined – IMO anyway.
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Ive experienced that when I would run for things like student council in school
I agree but I also have to say this was when we were kids…I would hope a national competition would be more respected than this and I’m sorry but if my best friend was terrible at pole dancing I would not vote for her.
wouldnt you want your friends to help you out in every way they could?
I can quite honestly say no. I would not want to be on stage if I didn’t match their skill level. I wouldn’t want to beat out others who deserved it just as much as I do because of unfair voting. I’m certain ALL 3 of these women want this just as badly as the others.
If we were trying to see who could lift 40kg the most times, sure, you could say a popularity vote was cheating. But when you are picking the best performer, popularity is already intertwined – IMO anyway.
Valid point but let me say that you actually pointed out that I was not expressing myself correctly. My concern is then not about who is the most popular but about how many votes skyrocketed in a very short period of time in the early morning (or late) hours.
As I said…it was just something to think about and there is no absolute right or wrong in this situation. I guess it’s just about personal beliefs and what you think is right or wrong.
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All I will say is that I am very surprised that they opted to go this route after the fiasco that was Pole Star.
And, no, I am not voting.
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I honestly haven’t even been watching the polls and I really just want it to be over with. I feel like you are suggesting that either a.) I’m cheeting, which I’m not because not only am I an honest person, I’m a computyer moron! And b.) Your saying whoever wins doesn’t deserve it if they win by popularity. So basically, if I were to win, I’m not tallented enough to share the stage with the others, because my friends voted for me even though I’m apparently a "terrible dancer"? I don’t know if I’m just taking it wrong but it seems all the crap comments are toward me! Why don’t I deserve it? It seems this whole thread was started to bash me. I want to say thank you to those who support me and stuck up for me I really appreciate it!
It just seems like everyone else trying to achieve they’re dreams gets support, but people just want to bring me down. Guess what, its not working, its only making me stronger, and I will prove that I deserve to ahcieve my dream!
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Raquelle…where did I name you? Please read what I wrote and don’t turn this into something it is not!
Quoting myself here:
votes suddenly escalated in all 3 categories
Why are you trying to turn this into something between you and I?
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OK…on second thought. I am backing out of this topic as it is turning into something different from what I started and that is very disappointing to me.
Anyone who knows me or even knows OF me knows that I am fair, ethical, and honest. I’m not going to get dragged into something I don’t care for, so I’ve made my point and anyone who READS what I wrote will see that.
Best of luck to all 3 contestants. https://www.studioveena.com/img/smilies/icon_cheers.gif
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I’m not trying to start any drama with you believe me! All I said was it seemed like you were implying those things being directed toward me, I don’t even know you, why would I want to start anything with you????????? It just seemed to me that all the negative comments were directed toward me, not only here, but on facebook and whatever, I’m done trying to defend myself all the time, I give up posting here, thanks for your support
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raquellestar, i know that you feel like you’re in a tough spot, but take a step back and breathe girl!
YOU sent in a long video, and YOU aren’t from the west coast. but, the USPDF judges selected your entry as one of the semi-finalists regardless, and didn’t clip it to 3 mins, and didn’t say that you couldn’t enter west and east coast, or that you had to be from CA to enter. so YOU didn’t do anything wrong. your worth as a dancer or an artist has nothing to do with what other people think or what USPDF thinks.
that being said, the issue that empy has raised is a valid one. and while i believe that audience participation is fun, it isn’t the way to make sure that the contestants in a competition uphold the standards and quality of movement that the competition purports to promote. if the contest is one judged by audience favorites, then fine, but then you have to realize that you’re selecting a winner based on who happens to be in the crowd that night. if some of the contestants are being selected by the audience, but the judging is happening without audience participation, then– why? do they truly have as good a shot at winning as the people who were selected straight off by the judges in the first place? are they competing for "a spot" or for the "twelfth" spot? if i was a competitor, i’d be sort of https://www.studioveena.com/img/smilies/icon_scratch.gif about that.
i think it needs to be very clear from the outset, with every competition, how the competitors are being judged. is there a number system where points get added up to give an overall score, and if so, what does a judge’s scorecard look like? what are they rating?
we, as competitors and observers, need to make sure we:
-respect the way that the scoring has been thought out
-think that the scoring will create an environment of fairness in judging metrics that we think are important
-support the organization that puts in that effortbecause how can you have a fair competition, ever, if you don’t know how you’re being scored? and as someone organizing a competition, how can you not have that transparency?
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All I will say is that I am very surprised that they opted to go this route after the fiasco that was Pole Star.
And, no, I am not voting.
What happened with Pole Star? Might help with some perspective on the online voting.
Edit: Went statistic finding. At the time of this posting:
Competitor / Votes
Shelly Lamb (38.4 %) / 333
Wendy Rust (14.5 %) / 126
Alicia Heaney (47.1 %) / 409Shelly Lamb(happydance) and Alicia Heaney(RaquelleStarr) have Vote for Me threads on this forum.
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YIkes – I don’t like to get into Pole-itics but with Pole Superstar – that was a different kind of comp based on online voting. I would really hate to be Barbara Dial. It’s not fair how much negativity she has gotten over winning – she personally has no control over who votes for her and she won! We should be happy for her. All of those dancers in that comp were amazing, they all trained hard! No one was there that didn’t deserve to be and just because you might have thought another person was better – it’s a matter of personal opinion. I’m sad that we as a community did not show more support for Barbara. She worked for it and she earned her chance to be there and everyone knew it was going to be an online vote. no one says Marlo didn’t deserve 2nd.
I do think popularity will naturally intertwine with comps – especially when it comes to fan favorites…that’s a great point. I think it’s great the community is given a voice.
There isn’t a dancer involved with any of of these comps that doesn’t deserve to be where they are, however I think Empy’s point was more generalized as to "how do we as a community feel about voting?" How does this effect our community? Do you like it? Does it cause negativity or positivity? No one was saying ANYONE did anything wrong or that any organizations did anything wrong.
I think Empy was trying to discuss the system – or atleast that’s how I took it. USPDF has taken measure to keep the voting as fair as it can be and I am really excited that they have reached out to us and given us a chance to help decide.
Now everyone HUG!!!!
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https://www.studioveena.com/img/smilies/icon_cry.gif https://www.studioveena.com/img/smilies/icon_cry.gif https://www.studioveena.com/img/smilies/icon_cry.gif I know first hand what if feels like to be talked about in what can easily be viewed as negatively on a public forum. It’s really isolating and makes you feel sick https://www.studioveena.com/img/smilies/icon_pale.gif
RaquelleStarr, you didn’t do anything underhanded or wrong. If the vid with the most votes gets a spot, of course its going to turn into asking friends for help and support!! Hugs to you. https://www.studioveena.com/img/smilies/icon_e_wink.gif
If we don’t like the way something is run/handled, then let’s address the issue with that person, or business. Don’t enter their comp if you don’t like how they handle things….don’t support/give money to an organization if you don’t like how they run things. Its pretty simple. IF you have your own personal studio or "cyberspace" to publicity post your thoughts that’s a great way to get your feeling across.
STUDIOVEENA WAS CREATED AS A PLACE OF POSITIVE SUPPORT FOR ALL WHO LOVE POLE…….when posting a new topic think…..does this HELP bring the pole community together if the answer is YES then go for it!
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All I will say is that I am very surprised that they opted to go this route after the fiasco that was Pole Star.
And, no, I am not voting.
I had that thought as well.
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OK…on second thought. I am backing out of this topic as it is turning into something different from what I started and that is very disappointing to me.
Anyone who knows me or even knows OF me knows that I am fair, ethical, and honest. I’m not going to get dragged into something I don’t care for, so I’ve made my point and anyone who READS what I wrote will see that.
You raised a valid point.
What we see these days of TV audiences voting on "talent shows" is very much about "voting early & voting often", and this has become such a pervasive approach that no one even considers that validity of it. And that is a sad statement on a democratic society.Beyond that, we individually have to cope with our own excitement, and bias, and resultant enthusiasm for some one with whom we may have established a relationship. That probably won’t change, but we certainly need to temper that with the ethics of voting.
This was an experiment on the part of the hosting organization, and it will be interesting to hear how they felt about their experiment when the final decision is made. In other competitions, organizers were accused of favoritism, and in this one the organizers tried introducing some element of democracy, and that has created controversy.
It’s still a relatively new sport, so there’s a lot of learning for all. What I have observed is people trying to do their best, with the best of intentions, and the sport is growing by leap and bounds and spins! We look at Olympic figure-skating, and hear the accusations of favoritism, nationalism, and cheating judges!!!This was a worthwhile experiment, this is a worthwhile thread, and we’ve all had something to learn from it.
Every competition has several Veeners competing — who do we cheer for? — ALL of them! https://www.studioveena.com/img/smilies/icon_cheers.gif
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I do not think that Empy’s original post was anything but opening up a conversation about this type of voting. It is sad the direction that the thread has taken. And yes, I do think that the intention of the thread was for the good of the community. How else will others who plan on hosting competitions get input from those of us that are actively involved in poling?
I also do not think that any post at least that I have read was intended as harmful. The east coast dweller in the west coast competition is a valid question. I doubt that many knew that where you live does not come into play. Again, helping the community that may want to compete in USPDF. I know that the Midwest competition that is being held next year specifically states must live in the Midwest, just as East meets West was specifically that.
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Raquelle, maybe take a step back for a second. NO ONE criticized your talent (which is the gist of what competition is about), NO ONE accused you of cheating, and NO ONE is trying to bash you or bring you down. I think we want everyone to succeed in their dreams and goals, as well as wanting the art/sport of Pole Dance to expand athletically and artistically. I think that Empy started this thread so we can all think for ourselves about what competition means. It was in no way directed as an attack on you. Another member asked questions about the rules regarding east coast/west coast and the length of the submission video. You told us very clearly that your vid camera/editing was broken. I think everyone knows that now and gets it. It was also brought up that there are no rules about which regional you can submit for. I, personally, am not such a fan of viewer voting, but I get the feeling that USPDF is trying this so that more regular people can feel like they’re more involved and kind of participating in the event, as well as exposing "friends" who may have never seen pole dancing at this level before. I, for one, am not able to attend either regional and I am never going to compete in either regional. Yet with the viewer voting, I do feel excited about it and I want to know more! I don’t think that anyone feels that you don’t deserve to be in the competition. I would hope that the fact that you are one of the three would boost your self-esteem. I know this is going to sound harsh, but: you might be the only one who feels like you aren’t good enough, and frankly, if you don’t feel good enough, even if you win the title of Miss USPDF 2010, it’s not going to prove it to you.
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Dez…This was a worthwhile experiment, this is a worthwhile thread, and we’ve all had something to learn from it.
I think the original post was fine…..its great to talk about these things. The problem comes in when we start using examples…..even if no names are mentioned it still is VERY personal to the one who knows its them. Think before you post…..and I’m not directing any of my posts to anyone person but all the members who use the site. This is a highly trafficked site and just because someone has never commented or posted here doesn’t mean they aren’t watching… https://www.studioveena.com/img/smilies/icon_cyclops_ani.gif
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so much food for thought here… personally, i kind of like the fact that uspdf chose 3 finalists from whom the public could choose the 12th. i find it fun. and you know what? even if it IS somewhat a popularity contest at this stage, so what ? all 3 of those girls have something special to offer !
and while an open discussion here about the idea of online voting is a great idea, i have to say i didn’t feel good about the tone of some of the statements. yes, let’s talk about this stuff. yes, let’s have preferences. it’s all ok so long as we’re keeping in mind that sometimes when we write something, it can come across harsh, whereas if it was spoken, the message might sound completely different.
i didn’t particularly feel anyone was being bashed, but then again, if i were reading a community forum and KNEW i was being referred to, only not by name, i might feel a bit defensive about it…
i dunno girls….. i just want us all to play nice together !
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