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Is this really “Constructive” Critisism?
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What are some examples, please? This is a very interesting discussion…
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Examples of what? Is that question directed to me or another post?
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Amy said—–i will say that i have been told that i’m skinny, and it was offensive to me. i’ve also been told that i need to gain weight, that i couldn’t psosibly be over 100 lbs (when i’m well over that!) and i foudn that offensive as well. i’ve had classmates tell me that things are easy for me because “you’re so light”. i’ve seen people be surprsied at what i eat, and how i eat, and i think it’s amazing how many judgments people pass without realizing it.—–
Amy, I can understand how these kinds of statements can be hurtful. However, I don’t believe it’s what we are talking about. These statements weren’t being used to try try help you. I am trying to stick to an instructor making an attempt at explaining to a student a possible reason for difficulty with a move.
If I am am having trouble with superman (which I do) and it is clearly nothing other than learning to maneuver my thicker thighs in a different way (which it is) what would you tell me?
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If I were 100% positive that was the real reason, I would tell her, “it looks like you’re struggling. Here try to position the pole a little higher on the back of your thigh, so you have a little more room to rotate over. Keep practicing your advance apprentice hold until until you get the feel that the pole is just in the right place and you have enough room. Try practicing with 1 foot on the ground. You’re doing great! Not everyone gets this move right off the bat.” I wouldn’t mention the size of her thighs. That is too personal for some people.
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BUT…the problem isn't the placement of her leg. It's the size of her thigh. Who said that she needed the pole higher on the back of her thigh?
This isnt the scnenario I suggested. My question was if she is doing the move correctly and the ONLY thing preventing her from getting the move is that her thigh is too large to thread through.
Isn't it worse to mislead someone and repeatedly tell them keep practicing when the REAL issue continues to be ignored?
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Chicago– yes, those statements i listed weren't used to try to help, but i dont believe that explaining a move should use a vocabulary that can be construed as hurtful. people sometimes think they are being helpful… but they aren't.
with the particular combo in the original post (apprentice to superman), i listed a bunch of things that i would ask the student to try a few posts up– usually i would teach all those steps to the entire class, because my classes are mixed level and not everyone is ready for the full combo.
i also try to show different entries and exits (time allowing) to the whole class (although just to one or two people if things are crazy), because i know not all my students gravitate towards the same moves and it helps to know different ways to navigate yourself around the poel. and if all of those didn't work, and you were getting really frustrated, you would get a pep talk, and i would tell you that not every combo or trick is right for every person, and how lucky we are to have so many awesome, different ones to try, and that if pole was easy and tricks were all nail-able on first try, there wouldn't be any fun in it (i have blogs upon blogs about all this, so i'll try not to bore you with all that here). you could also work the fundamentals of the precursor moves instead and maybe try a different move to use as an exit. am i answering your question?
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How can I say this more succinctly?
the student is strong
the student is flexible
the student is skilled enough to do the move
the student can do both the apprentice and the superman perfectly
the student can do all the preliminary moves
the student WANTS this move…is insistent she wants to figure out how to get it.Her thighs are the only problem because she cannot feed her leg through.
What do you say?
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This move is not impossible if you have thick thighs, it’s just not. I have seen it done. If a move completely impossible and the girl has no hope of ever getting this move, I wouldn’t tell her her thighs are too big for it. I would just say, “maybe you’re not ready for this move so let’s try this move instead.” I wouldn’t say in so may words, “don’t even bother trying this move. You’re too fat for it”. There has got to be a better way to say things.
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It CAN be impossible if you have TOO thick thighs…not "just thick" …but TOO thick.
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Quote: Examples of what? Is that question directed to me or another post?
Yes, I was wondering what moves a student couldn't do because of thighs. I am a new teacher and this would be helpful to know.
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I'm always explaining to my ladies that we all have physical limitations whether it be body shape/size, height, strength, or athletic back ground. As an instructor it is my responsibility to assure my students are aware that pole can be a challenge and it's up to me to work with them according to the challenges they are presented within their limitations. I think in pole there's an element of intimacy within the studio and that rapport students develop with their instructor is essential. Having a sub come in can cause disruption however I don't think the sub's intention was to verbally assault a student she was trying to help. I don't think it was appropriate to make that type of statement to pinpoint the student in front of the class. There are instances where the instructor is doing her rounds in class and can close the conversation to student and instructor only so as not to announce to the class "Janey's anatomy is preventing her from performing X move…" There are subtle ways of addressing a student's limitations, however like everyone else had already mentioned- I don't know the entire situation so I'm not certain how eveything occurred and/or if the statement was made on a personal level and it just happened to be ear shot from another student.
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Koba, I agree there are subtle ways to say things and privately. Most definitely! This was said in front of the entire class, right at the point she was starting to work with someone else.
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Good point Kobajo…it should have been said to the student privately instead of in front of the class.
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Sparrow…it's not just the size of the thighs but all sorts of moves are dependent on body structure. Everyone's shapes and proportions are different and you have to evaluate each person and situation differently.
Pigeon toed – difficulty or inability doing cross ankle layback
Thick thighs AND thick calves – difficulty or inability doing outside leg hangs
Thick thighs and thin calves – difficult or inability doing inside leg hangs
Short arms – difficulty or inability doing ayasha or forearm standsThe reason I keep saying difficulty OR inability is because it can depend on other things like flexility, proportions of the rest of the body, etc. or it can simply be severe enough to limit that particular move for that person.
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Of course. Not every move will work with every body.
I was reading your post that said:
"what if the ONLY reason really was that she had larger/more shapely/bigger/curvier/thicker thighs????
So that is THE ONLY REASON a person cannot get a move."
And I was trying to think of moves that 'thick' thighs would prevent someone from doing.
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I've seen people who can get either an inside leg hang or an outside leg hang but cannot get the other due to thicker proportioned thighs. Same thing with Cross knee release. In fact it's pretty common with CKR that people with thicker thighs may not get that move but can get the CAR.
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For me, the CKR was very awkward on a 50mm, but perfectly doable on a 45 as not all my fat was being pinched by a big pole. I find the gemini to be doable but the scorpio is so awkward.
On a different body type problem, I'm not sure I will ever be able to do moves that twist my torso around the pole as my torso is very short.
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Its comments like that, that make me aprehensive to take a class. If that were me id have burst into tears. But i am super super sensitive
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@Sparrow, I think what Empyrean was trying to say was like this; I'm 5'6, therefore even if in spectacular physical condition I will never be able to dunk a basketball. This physical attribute alone will prevent me. So we could sit here and have a philosophical discussion and ponder every single move and the what if's or we could just keep it real. It is what it is, and if a comment like that gets to someone that bad maybe they need to invest in some self esteem building activities. I highly doubt the instructor was trying to be mean, this isn't kindergarden.
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I totally get that point–I may never do xx move or xx move–but it is practical for me to learn which moves pose problems for students with certain attributes. 🙂
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Sparrow I brought up a few based on my exeperience but we can always run into new ones.
I have one student who is very pigeon -toed…she can't do the CAR securely. Never thought of that one until we were actually teaching that move.
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I may have to ask my classes about this…because I use the words "thick thighs" ALL THE TIME!! To me, in context of instructing, it's no more than a description, not a derogatory term.
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Unfortunately weight is a highly stigmatized thing and something many people struggle with but since we 'can' change it (unlike height) those people are sometimes judged. It's a result of that sort of hostile environment that creates a sensitivity. In addition to that, while we may all be grownups, bullying and just plain meanness (I have no idea if thats a word :P) are still a huge issue amongst adults. Just look at the issues in workplaces these days! Many people are taking pole to assist with fitness, weight management and self-esteem…. which makes me think a little sensitivity is especially important. IF that were the only thing stopping the student then it may be right to tell the student ('may' because I really wouldn't think it is for a sub to do) but perhaps a better phrase than 'thick' and done in private, preferably after the class would strike me as the more tactful and productive way to approach it. It is, I think, less likely to produce the negative effects or humiliate a student and more likely to make the student feel supported and perhaps even inclined to keep working towards the solution instead of just never wanting to go back and ending up missing out on that hour a week (or however much it may be) of physical activity and fun.
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I have always had "thick" thighs. I rode horses most of my life. Thick doesn't neccessarily mean "fat" which seems to be what most people are equating it to. Thick thighs can be musclar thighs and muscles are a good thing! I was 118 lbs with a 20 inch waist and my thighs were a whopping 21 inches around EACH ONE! And I can tell you at that point in my life there was not an inch of fat on those thick thighs!
I would kill to have that body back too lol.
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I was just about to post exactly what nymphdancer has said…thick does not always mean fat.
My teachers are always reminding us in class that we are all built differently, and therefore some moves won't work for some and will be really easy for others. Of course, if you can adjust the move slightly to enable a student to do it, then by all means do so. However, this isn't going to always be possible.
E.g. When I was in level 2 we did a pole climb, using only the back of the pole…so like an upright crucifix but with both legs behind the pole. It was pretty impossible for me to do this move because I have thin legs, and the gap between my thighs was bigger than the pole. Rather than holding on with my thighs like everyone else, I was squeezing with my knees which put a lot of pressure on them and possibly could have caused injury. Therefore, unless I "thickened up" I can not accomplish that move safely.
I don't see how it is offensive for a teacher to point this out. Like others have pointed out, I think they are doing a disservice if they don't.
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